Many of the plot arcs are set in "Emerald City" ("Em City"), also a concept from The Wizard of Oz. In this experimental unit of the prison, unit manager Tim McManus attempts to emphasize rehabilitation and learning responsibility during incarceration, as opposed to pure punishment. Emerald City is an extremely controlled environment in which there is a carefully managed number of members of each racial and social group, with the hope of easing tensions among these various groups.
Under McManus and Warden Leo Glynn, the inmates in Em City all struggle to fulfill their own needs. Some fight for power; either power over the drug trade or power over the other inmate factions. Others, corrections officers and inmates alike, simply want to survive long enough. In particular the prisoners want to make parole or even to see tomorrow. The show gives a no-holds-barred acct of prison life with all the plots, subplots & conflicts given context and explanation by the show's wheelchair-using narrator, Augustus Hill.
Oz chronicles the attempts of McManus to keep control over the inmates of Em City. There are many groups of inmates during the run of the show and not everybody within each group makes it out alive. There are the African American Homeboys (Adebisi, Wangler, Redding, Poet, Keene, Supreme Allah) and Muslims (Said, Arif, Hamid Khan), the Wiseguys (Pancamo, Nappa, Schibetta), the Aryans (Schillinger, Robson, Mark Mack), the Latinos (Alvarez, Morales, Guerra, Hernandez), the Irish (the O'Reily brothers), the gays (Hanlon, Cramer), the bikers (Hoyt), and a number of others (Rebadow, Keller, Stanislofsky). In contrast to the dangerous criminals, regular character Tobias Beecher gives a look at a normal man who made one fatal drunk-driving mistake. The episodes are narrated and held together by inmate Augustus Hill, who provides the show with some context, some sense of humor, etc.
Tobias Beecher & Chris Keller
Prisoners: Oswald St. Corr. Fac.
(Em City) - "No place like home"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oz characters - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oz characters - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oz_episodes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
***Honestly, the main reason the Oz & Law & Order shared so many actors is probably because they were both filmed on location in NYC, so the pool of actors are all New Yorkers rather than Hollywood/L.A. residents. Also, Oz was produced by Barry Levinson, who was the producer behind the show Homicide, where Richard Belzer originated the role of John Munch. The actors who were in both franchises include:
ReplyDeleteChristopher Meloni played Chris Keller on "OZ" and Elliot Stabler on "Law & Order: SVU".
Robert John Burke played Special Agent Pierce Taylor on "OZ" and Lt. Ed Tucker on "Law & Order: SVU".
Lauren Velez played Dr. Gloria Nathan on "OZ" and Stephanie Jameau on "Law & Order: SVU".
David Zayas played Enrique Morales on "OZ" and John Mireles on "Law & Order."
Dean Winters played Ryan O'Reilly on "OZ" and Detective Brian Cassidy on "Law & Order: SVU".
Lee Tergesen played Tobias Beecher on "OZ" and Keith Ramsey on "Law & Order."
B.D. Wong played Father Ray Mukada on "OZ" and Dr. George Huang on "Law & Order: SVU".
J.K. Simmons played Vern Schillinger on "OZ" and Dr. Emil Skoda on "Law & Order" and "Law & Order SVU".
Edie Falco played Diane Whittlesey on "OZ" and Sally Bell on "Law & Order."
R.E. Rodgers played James Robson on "OZ" and Darryl Kern on "Law & Order: SVU".
Anthony Chisholm played Burr Redding on "OZ" and Leroy Russell on "Law & Order: SVU".
Kathryn Ebre played Shirley Bellinger on "OZ" and Detective Alexandra Eames on "Law & Order: Criminal Intent".
Luis Guzmán played Raoul 'El Cid' Hernandez on "OZ" and Cesar Pescador on "Law & Order".
Robert Clohessy played Officer Sean Murphy on "OZ" and Kenny Peluso, Robert Telford and "Painter" on "Law & Order", Lt. Roger Lemoyne and Phil LeGrand on "Law & Order: Criminal Intent" and Joel Parven and Vinnie on "Law & Order."***
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Delete***Surely they should be more understanding of Cyril's condition in OZ. - They seem very unsympathetic of his case. I know I would have helped him as much as I could.***
ReplyDeleteCompassion was a rarity in that prison! Even Sister Pete had her moments! [laugh] I didn't even have much sympathy for Leo when he was knocked off! Remember the Doctor told him the prisoners in the HOLE were getting sick with something that was down there! He didn't seem to care! Discpline had to be observed! That was one of the sleaziest things done supposedly by one of the "good guys!"
***Is Vern Schillinger Gay? - Hes not gay he just liked to bang dudes in the butt. - I'm guessing you're referring to the actor since you mentioned something gay he did on another show. I don't have an answer for you in that regard, but I can tell you he's a great actor.
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In regards to the character, I'd say yes. From the fact that he was clearly fiending for Dino Ortalani in the first episode, but Dino wasn't having any of it so Vern skulked off like the perverted old man that he is.***
I guess you remember the results of Dino playing the "hard ass?" I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy! Sometimes you have to "give it up" to survive! In his mind, he probably would rather die, but NOT LIKE THAT!
***That's what I love about the show, how unrealistic it is. If it was like a real prison, it'd probably be very boring. The warden, the staff, etc are jokes and there are so many deaths in Oz, that it's a wonder the warden, Mcmanus, and the others have jobs. People die left and right and they are like, hmm, okay, whatever, let's have some birthday cake.
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So you can't let reality deter you from this show. Once you know it's not realistic, it's very funny and even better to watch (at least I think so). Season 6 was totally off the mark on reality - it's a total joke! Keep watching, you'll see! - Living in the ghetto is more hazardous than being on death row. Seriously, look at the statistics. My source is a TED talk though, so I could be talking out of my ass.***
I can imagine Death Row being totally safe for the most part in comparison to trying to survive "The Ghetto!" Your movements are supposedly restricted in that cell for 23 hours! You wouldn't have those random murders as in 'OZ! The thing is, the reason no one takes notice even if it was going on exactly like OZ, as long as the populous doesn't have to deal with that underbelly of society, it's ok! Someone used an example of sewage backing up into your tub! You don't want to know anything about it, you call a plumber and tell him to "just take care of it for me!"
***Is Vern Schillinger Gay? - The characters not gay. He's a sadist who likes humiliating people and has no outlet for sex with women. Its a myth that raping another man makes you gay. Most men who rape other men are straight as its not really about sex. He was just trying to get an ally with Ortalani. The actors not gay either he's married with kids.***
ReplyDeleteWhat's amazing that they say they aren't gay, but what's the excuse for raping some kid in lockup in an overnight beef like a DUI? How pent up are these guys that they can't get thru the night w/o attacking some poor defenseless kid?
***If Dr Nathan had've never worked at Oz in the first place, then her husband would've never been murdered, so ultimately his death was all her fault.***
It's been about 10 years since I've watched this, but wasn't he abusive? No, that was her rapist O'Reilly took care of! She was sorta flattered by his attention and didn't keep her distance which is why her husband was killed!
***Her falling for Ryan was ridiculous, but you can't say it's her fault her husband was killed just cause she worked in a prison. Its not like there's a huge number of prisoners who kill the loved ones of prison staff. I've never heard of that happening and her husband knew what she did for a living and chose to be with her. Her getting involved with Ryan was a complete betrayal of her husbands memory though.***
***Which crime flashbacks did you think were the coolest? - Schillinger: he was a total "G" about it and the way he tossed the drugs out the window was just plain hilarious. Augustus: his was very dramatic***
ReplyDeleteAugustus' just made no sense! Where did he think he was going stripped down naked and punching a cop! I thought him a lot smarter for some reason!
***Rewatching Season 5: Damn, I Forgot How Annoying Omar White Was - ...but not nearly as bad as some of the storylines and other crap that happened that season.***
He worried me! I always wondered should he have been on some kind of medication! He could flip out anytime; and did many times!
***He was funny honestly...like when he stabbed McManus lol. I know it's kind of messed up to laugh at, but the way it went down was just so random and funny. McManus's reaction when Omar comes up to him and when he starts attacking him is just great.***
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"If there was a last word for OZ" - You'd have the staff in their new roles as criminals! Heaven knows many should have been prosecuted, including Glynn if he had survived assassination!
***Honestly...this is one show I'd love for them to do a sequel to...the show is about prison so you can basically bring in a largely new cast and it won't take too long to get adjusted to them if done right. You could still have the surviving prisoners and staff members in roles; maybe Alvarez is still locked up and Beecher gets a job working at Oz. McManus could still be around; Dr. Nathan too & O'Reilly would probably be locked up though it kind of seemed like he was changing his ways towards the end of the series, realizing all his backstabbing and double crossing isn't the best way to live. would like to see Devlin as a prisoner and see him get killed brutally in the first episode of the new series as well lmao. Its a crime we didn't get to see him go down before the show ended.
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I'm working off vague memories, so I'm not entirely sure, but wasn't Cutler beginning to take over from Vern a little and Vern wanted to make a move against Cutler that couldn't be traced back to him so he tells Robson to whack Cutler and he'll be back in with the Aryans?***
That sounds about right, but it's been almost 10 years since I've watched the show! Cutler was on the move; younger, stronger, more feared! It made sense for Vern to make that offer to Robson!
***Guess I never realized Adebisi never directly killed anyone in OZ. Sure he stuck Napa with the AIDS needle (didn't end up killing him before the crossdresser did), and probably orchestrated a few deaths but never him actually murdering someone himself.***
He is and still was the most vicous, psychotic, & deplorable of the inmates! Justice finally caught up with him! He had to be delusional if he actually thought Said was really going to submit to him and what he was doing in OZ!
if vern is not gay, why does vern rape so many inmates? there are many other ways to humiliate them. even though there r no women in prison, straight men dont even want to think about putting their dicks in men's asshole. you cant change your sexual orientation just because you've been living in prison for a long time. i think vern is bi sexual because he has son and grandchildren.
Deleteayran brothers are homophobic but they rape men. i think they are gay( but i think robson is bi because he has girlfriend outside of the prison) but they dont want to admit it so they express hatred towards gays.
i think adebisi is bi and cutler wolfgang and clarence( big black dude who tried to rape winthrop and raped robson) are gay.if adebisi is not bi, he wouldnt have raped peter. i think beecher is also bi because he has children but he has been sleeping with many men in prison.
it is so unfair that officer diane wasnt imprisoned for what she did! she has been trading drugs in prison but she got away with it. i dont blame her for shooting ross because he shot mcmanus. but i was surprised that glynn didnt punish diane when he heard that she killed ross. glynn investigated dino's death even though dino killed aids patient. i thought glynn treated inmates fairly.
***JK Simmons is discriminated against in Hollywood for his looks. - True, but sadly he's not the only one. A lot of Oz's actors are underrated and underused... Producers must think that people prefer to see pretty bland interchangeable actors. - I agree, but he was *perfectly* cast as J. Jonah Jameson in the Spiderman movies (Toby Maguire era).***
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately Simmons wound up being more a caricature of himself playing other roles! Seems to me he's been typecast as a skinhead even though he's played a doctor more than a couple times; "Law & Order" one of them! I remember him more for OZ and playing a racist bomber in a "L & O - Homicide: LOTS" crossover 2 parter several years ago!
***Male nudity in OZ - ...many of them had huge cockz! Is that realistic? I also find that hard to believe. And Luke perry. I think dean winters definitely warmed himself up before his frontal shot.***
The beefy motorcycle punk was the most hung; shaved head, beard, good beefy body, and fat cock! lol! When they put him in solitary, it was worth the view if I liked that type! I don't though!
***Because Jazz Hoyt is a semi-pornstar and also married to one***
That's the one! Not my type, but wouldn't mind seeing some of his work! Just not into flossing with hair! The redhead who instigated Rev. Cloutier being walled up was more my kind of guy! Gotta mean streak in him though! Can't take rejection!
***Oz Character Elimination Game - Rules: Below is a list of characters on Oz and a corresponding list of points. Copy and paste the list in your own post, then pick your favorite and least favorite character listed. Indicate them with a *+1* or *-1* and record the new score. Once a character reaches zero, please delete them from the list. Last character standing wins.
Warden Leo Glynn (10)
Vern Schillinger (10)
Tobias Beecher (11)*+1*
Ryan O'Reily (10)
Bob Rebadow (10)
Tim McManus (10)
Sister Peter Marie Reimondo (12)
Augustus Hill (10)
Kareem Said (10)
Poet (10)
Dr. Gloria Nathan (10)
Zahir Arif (10)
Agamemnon Busmalis (11)
Miguel Alvarez (10)
Father Ray Mukada (10)
Chucky Pancamo (10)
Cyril O'Reily (10)
Chico Guerra (10)
Chris Keller (10)
Officer Sean Murphy (10)
James Robson (10)
Officer Claire Howell (7)
Jaz Hoyt (9)
Simon Adebisi (11)
Governer James Devlin (9)*-1* -***
***JK Simmons is discriminated against in Hollywood for his looks. - I agree, but he was *perfectly* cast as J. Jonah Jameson in the Spiderman movies (Toby Maguire era).***
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately Simmons wound up being more a caricature of himself playing other roles! Seems to me he's been typecast as a skinhead even though he's played a doctor more than a couple times; "Law & Order" one of them! I remember him more for OZ and playing a racist bomber in a "L & O - Homicide: LOTS" crossover 2 parter several years ago!
***JK Simmons played a psychologist on L+O: SVU also r u thinkin' of Daniel Von Bargen who played a bomber on New York Undercover?***
Nope! Never seen "NY Undercover!" Like I said, it was a crossover episode; chemical bombing in NY subway, but traced back to Baltimore! Hense the need to bring in Pembleton on "Homicide: LOTS!" He had had initial dealing with a church bombing and bells went off in his head!
***JK Simmons is a great actor and he's been in some great TV shows and movies, but I agree he's very under-rated, like James Spader. JK Simmons was awesome as Schillinger - he could be scary as hell but also hilariously funny. On SVU, I bought him as a psychiatrist. He, of course, was perfect in the Spiderman movies, and I thought his scenes in Arrested Development were way too short. Does he do any Broadway or theater work? He's got a great voice and is very graceful in his movements. One of my favorite scenes in Oz is when Ryan jumps over the cafetaria food line to beat up Schillinger and then when the COs break up the fight, Schillinger coming up from the ground was very cool and macho. I can't explain it, it was just a quick second of brilliance.***
***So...I just finished season 2 FINALLY. All I have to say is...I can't BELIEVE this show aired on TV let alone on HBO. The crucifixion scene has been stuck in my brain all day and I finished the S3 days ago.
ReplyDeleteWhat I really love about the show is, yes, it's brutal, but it's not brutal for no apparent reason. It seems that the most brutal moments of the show happen in the finales every season. The writers set up the character arcs for the entire season which normally leads to a brutal, violent, and bloody moment and therefore seems to have a point. I... Love... This... Show...! I don't even think I'm explaining what I want to explain clearly enough...
My question to you all: will there be other stuff along the lines of the crucifixion/Beecher's arms and legs breaking? Because I don't know how things can get more *beep* up than crucifying someone (no reference to the fact that he was a child molester...see that!?) and I just want to prepare myself lol! The eyes being gouged out wasn't too bad because it's more "common" violence (if there is such a thing). What I mean is, it's not everyday you see someone being crucified in a film/tv series.***
Prison justice has been acknowledged all too often! I would rather go "Escape From NY" and request "disintegration" rather than being put in a place like that! lol! When the prisoners practically run these places, they need to just be put into 23 hour detention; allowed to stretch for an hour alone! They admit with so much time on their hands, they can only come up with "no good" to go to one another for amusement! They corrupted "midnight" basketball and boxing by maiming a guard and drugging combatants to fix outcomes! Morons!
***Why did VERN put a tattoo in his cell mates ass? - Prag!***
ReplyDeleteThat only went so far! Remember Robson got his 'joint' tip bitten off by said Prag; Tobias!
***I loved it when Beecher fed the little $hite to the wolves! - Or the Aryans and bikers to be more precise. That guy who was calling him a fag and behaving like a kid in high school who became one of the cool kids and bullies his old friends. Dang that guy was so dumb he had one of the worst prison instincts ever; hahaha dumb naive bastard. Dang he got what he deserved when Beecher let them rape and prag the little bitch. I laughed so much the way he was screaming when he realised that Beecher all along was the only thing stopping him from being 'pragged' and he was getting dragged into that room to get brutally gang raped. Harsh reality for you, you dumb kid, you're about to have several cocks rammed forcibly up your ass and as such be humiliated and have your manhood stripped from you. Sure it was nasty and scary at the same time and I couldn't possibly laugh when he was completely naked dripping with blood afterwards although I was still thinking "you got what you deserved you dumb shit".
But the bit that made me really laugh was later on when we saw him all pragged up with makeup and clips in his hair; proper humiliated hahaha. it's only funny because of who it was and the way he was acting before. I loved how his friend who had all ready been 'pragged' begged the Aryans to let him watch too and they did. Totally served the cocky bastard right. Such a dumb shit to think that the Aryans, his very own masters, suddenly wanted to help him escape too. Mind bottlingly dumb. He must have been so desperate for a miraculous escape out of the hole, he'd dug himself into to fall for that trick. I bet his mind was just focused on one thing - getting to be with his dear mumsy again.
I found this whole character arc very scary and real and it seemed like an all too realistic depiction of the harsh realities of boys who think they are men and find themselves in prison a sheep surrounded by wolves. Seriously it seems to me like none of these dumb shits actually think about the harsh reality of what will probably happen to them if they continue with their shit - they will probably find themselves in a prison surrounded by men gagging to force their tools up they ass and with no body to save them from being raped and 'pragged' and humiliated other than themselves. How many 'cool' young guys with all the swagger and shit seem like they are actually aspiring to be 'prags.' I mean what the hell is wrong with them? Damn man it's mind fucking how many dumb bastards there are today who seem incapable of thinking more than a day or a week ahead, incapable of conceiving what bad things could easily happen to them out of their control and incapable of real empathy.
Well this is the kind of thought trains that Oz sets off for me. Such a powerful show.***
Thanks for the review! Added to my blog! Good luck!
***...I am about to watch these episodes so it'll be interesting to see what the treacherous little turd is like and what finally obligates Beecher to call in the Aryan Booty Warriors to sort him out.***
ReplyDeleteIt's been quite a few years since I've seen any of "OZ," but what I do remember, it had more to do with Beecher taking away the kid's protection by the Muslims! He may have mentioned something to Schillinger, but seemed to be more in passing than actually giving them permission to "sort the kid out!"
***Watched a couple of episodes last night of him calling Beecher a fag repeatedly. I can't say I blame Beecher. Heck in his shoes I'd probably be dragging him off to B block myself and then ring the Aryan dinner bell.
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Beecher/Keller storyline ending was disgusting. I mean, come on! Keller was always crazy and in love with Beecher, but that revenge (or whatever that was) was low. Will Beecher ever gonna leave Oz? Will he ever find anyone normal? What do you think?
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It was the appropriate ending and I stand by that. Keller could just simply not turn his back on who he was at his core. As for your questions, well...they are purposely left unanswered. I don't even have an opinion on what might or would or could happen.***
Someone produced an alternative ending on Youtube! It may still be on my homage page! In it, video shows Beecher just outside looking at the prison! Keller actually let him go! Interesting!
***Just got through the series, the thing that made me cringe the most was definitely Robson trying to remove his 'new' gums.***
It's hard feeling sorry for Robson! We already know he's one of the biggest psychos in the place, but even a psycho should realize something as delicate as dentistry should be done by someone you trust! How trusting could the guy be when Robson was bullying the man? That's about as stupid as belittling a waiter or cook! They have so much power over the situation! Moron! Abusing Tobias while his organ in his mouth was also one of the dumbest moves possible as well! He's lucky the tip was retrievable!
***Regarding Cyril's execution - All things considered, I think Cyril's death was a kindness. I'm not saying that he wasn't culpable for his crimes. I got the general idea that he didn't even fully understand why he was in prison in the first place. Realistically, he shouldn't have even been ruled as fit to stand trial. But unfortunately he was and he was sent to prison. Aside from execution, the other two possibilities would have been:
ReplyDelete1) A lifetime of being raped and abused in Oz (Ryan couldn't watch him all the time), or
2) A lifetime of being abused in the state hospital for the criminally insane. Life in a state psychiatric ward isn't any better than life in prison, and it could be argued that it's worse.
So when compared to 20-40 more years of abuse and rape, death is probably the humane road. His abuse would have been worse because of the point I made earlier, that he really didn't understand why he was in prison. So from his perspective he would have decades of brutality and no reason why it was happening.***
I'd ask for "Escape From New York" disintegration before going to OZ! lol! That available at the desk when you check in?
***McManus did a poor job of 'rehabilitating' prisoners, but he tried which counts for a lot in OZ...most of the other employees were pretty terrible people who couldn't give two shits about helping prisoners become better people and whatnot. Don't get me wrong, he annoyed me a lot of the time, but I didn't mind his character and am actually glad they didn't kill him off.***
ITA! It was sad that it appeared he was the only one who really cared! Sister Peter Marie, Father Mukada, and the good Doctor Nathan had their moments of acquiesence!
***...Even Warden Glynn (though his approach was tempered by his level of responsibility and the realities of prison life seemed to actually care more than Mcmanus in my opinion.***
I had to jump off the float honoring Glynn when he allowed prisoners to suffer poisoning in the detention cells; solitaire! It made no sense when he's warned by Nathan, "they'll only get worse!" He didn't blink really; "they have to stay there!" Didn't bug me too much when he was killed by one of his own guards to save politicians; mayor knocked off too! That was one crazy place! Like in "Escape From NY," I'd ask for disintegration! lol! Prisoners have nothing but time on their hands to amuse and come up with ways to make times harder on others; prisoners and the administration!
No one seems to bring up CO Claire Howell! That's pretty "ballsy" of a female prison guard to prey on and have relations with hardened criminals! How disturbed must be her character? Shhesshhh!
ReplyDelete---
***If You Were Miguel Alvarez - If you were in Oz and Raoul Hernandez told you to gouge out the eyes of a C.O., what would you do?***
I suppose it's easy to say because it's never going to happen, but I don't have the survival gene these animals have! I don't believe my life is worth more than a complete stranger! I can't imagine going to the 'dark side' just so I can breathe another day! What kind of life is that? True justice would have been Miguel turning on Raoul taking his sight! In my day, if you plot stuff like that, at least pick someone who's a bad guy anyway? This is as senseless as a gang leader sending out some stooge to kill "anyone" to make their bones! You want to kill each other? Fine! Why attack some innocent soul?
***Is this still the only homosexual soap opera on mainstream TV?***
I think Reichen Lehmkuhl performed in a gothic soap of some sort called "Dante's Cove!" I only saw a clip on YouTube a couple years ago! He was getting intimate with some other guy! Quite provocative really, but it was being telecast in LA or NY and probably was no big deal! Reichen isn't working, but it could still be playing somewhere! In Chicago, Logo's as racey as it'll get!
***Why wasn't anyone punished for Augustus Hill's death? He died protecting Burr Redding and while it was an accident, it had malicious Intent and guards witnessed it. Why did the dude who shanked him stay free?
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On another Oz board, someone messaged Tom with that question, and he said that Tom replied that in a deleted scene it was answered that in the time between seasons 5 and 6 Urbano actually got caught, but he was let go on a technicality.***
How do you really punish murderers? Most of these thugs aren't going anywhere anyway! The only real 'punishment metted' out was by the guards when prisoners did something to them! That was usually worse than any sentence a court could hand down!
***Why would McManus smoke a joint inside the prison? A guard could have easily caught him.
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Whos gonna catch him really? people get raped and killed left and right like its a sport without anyone ever catching them so whos gonna notice a staffer smoking a joint in a restricted area.***
Beecher's father was actually murdered while visiting OZ! Justice was served by Keller, but so what? Beecher lost a lot with that "old bag" of a judge "putting the hammer" to him! I'm still trying to figure out if she felt so guilty for such a harsh sentence, why didn't she do something about it?
***Why did Beecher become such a bitch? When Beecher first came to Oz, he was a frightened wimp and was physically and sexually abused by Schillinger. However, when he beat up Schillinger and took a dump in his mouth, I thought he was going to be a bad-ass from then on. I was disappointed that he turned into such a fruit over the next few seasons.
ReplyDelete---
I'm assuming you're talking about why post-season 3 Beecher became rather passive. B/c he was trying to pull his life together. Getting in fights and retaliating against every person who did him wrong would put a kink in that. I'll be honest - for me, it's difficult to watch him be afraid, get beat up, get manhandled all over again (season 4 when he just started being the cellblock prag by choice) after showing that he could stand on his own too, but I understand why he did it.
When you choose not to retaliate back, what else can you do but be afraid in a world where the predators just keep coming? If you wanna get out, you have to stop being a "tough guy." Beecher did that, and it wasn't easy. Beecher became a stronger person after all the crap he went through with Schillinger.***
Both became bigger losers due to children being lost in their juvenile interaction!
***Beecher should've just blinded Schillinger and left it at that though. He didn't have to overdue it by taking a dump on his face and messing up his parole b/c it had devastating consequences for him later on.
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I loved this show, but looking back I found it silly how Schillinger was never able to kill Beecher despite being the head of The Aryan Brotherhood. Mayor Lowen telling off Vern in the last season of OZ was priceless since it was true.
IIRC, the quote went something like "That guy that saved my life, Beecher. I hear you've been trying to airhole him for 6 f-king years and all you've got to show for it is that little scar above your eye."***
Killing Beecher should have been too easy! I always thought Schillinger wasn't trying that hard, rather "keep him alive" and destroy things around him! More suffering; hense Beecher losing a kid and father! Sorta like pulling the legs off a bug I guess!
***It's been 10 years since the series ended. - Where do you think all the characters would be now?
ReplyDeleteBeecher - At peace, but probably got another 20-30 years tacked onto his sentence. Becoming similar to Rebadow.
O'Reilly - Gloria and him estranged
Alvarez - Sober, but sees another kid coming into the joint similar to him when he first arrived and trying to keep off the wrong path.
Rebadow and Busmalis - Rebadow has developed dementia and Busmalis has had to watch him decay.
McManus - Finally disillusioned by his belief that he could rehabilitate prisoners, Has become Glynn in some ways.
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1) Beecher? By now, he's out. He didn't get convicted of Keller's murder and simply had to serve more years until another parole hearing. When his next parole came up, he passed for good behavior and now he's picking up the pieces of his life. He and his children are struggling to get along (Holly hates him for all she was put through during his incarceration. They're all living with his mother until he can find his own place. Beecher has a minimum wage job b/c now nobody in law will work with him. In other words, his life is still Hell, but he's trying to make it work. He's a better person because of Oz.
2) O'Reilly has become a model prisoner. He spends time with his father and mother when he can. He has a cordial relationship with Neema (who by this time has filled the void that Said left behind - in other words, he's championing the prisoners' causes when he can and if he believes it's righteous). He's kind of just there now, though. No more drug dealing, no more playing games, nothing. He's just doing time and being a good prisoner. He stays out of nonsense. As for his relationship with Dr. Nathan, they do love each other, but are forced to be at arm's length. They can never truly be together b/c of their roles.
3) Alvarez can go one of two directions: 1) he's become a silent, empty, bitter drug-addled man. It's like he's not even there except for Torquemada's amusement (to which he'll concede for free drugs). He's gone, having lost all hope. 2) he's dead. Yes, you read that right. Either he's alive and messed up, or he's dead - drug overdose, not paying a debt for drugs, that kind of thing. It sucks, I know, but his ending just didn't have a light at the end of the tunnel.
4) I agree with you. I think Rebadow eventually will get dementia and that'll be the end of him. He's over in psych ward now. Busmalis will have since lost Norma's love, as she wasn't prepared for married life with a prisoner. He's alone, lost, and angry - not even there.
5) I picture McManus still working in the prison system (if not still at Oz working Emerald City), but this time with a more realistic approach to his job. He doesn't get as emotional as he used to get or take anything personally. By now, I think he'll be fighting the fight the way that it should.
6) Robson - AIDS ward, probably turned a new leaf, realizes what a prick he was.
No matter which way you look at it, all the characters aren't very happy in 10 years. But that's what prison'll do to you. It's not roses, not at all.***
OMG, Robson had to be the biggest a-hole and f'n idiot around; bullying the dentist & Beecher! What would possess someone to make threats to someone who's going to work on your mouth and joint? Beecher bit off the tip btw! Totally demented person with little self control!
***I'm surprised no one ever noticed Eli Zabitz was portrayed by David Johansen from the New York Dolls, and who was also Buster Poindexter lol!***
ReplyDeleteI think Keller knocked off Buster after he made up that lie about him being responsible for Toby's kids being kidnapped! He screamed like a woman in the end! lol! What was it; made a deal so he'd get dental care sooner? What a moron! Most people know not to play with Keller and his relationship with Tobias!
***Who was the sickest character in oz - My bet would either be Schillinger or Adebisi***
As in other threads, I put O'Reilly and Keller at the top of the list! They do their deeds with a smile on their face no matter how heinous! O'Reilly didn't even care if he screwed up his own brother's life! Winning a bet was more important to him!
***Keller was one demented individual. The episode where he tells Ronald Barlog the truth about the crimes the FBI accused him of, followed by what he does to Ronald, shows the depths of Keller's depravity. It took me awhile to take him serious in SVU since I kept thinking of how well he played this truly sick character.
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How Ryan O'Reilly would fare in a real prison. Due to the combination of his pretty boy looks, his 140 pound woman-like body, and his mouthiness and cockiness. If Ryan O'Reilly ever did time in a real prison and there was a show about it...he would have been ass raped a hundred times and killed by episode 3.***
Agreed! He wouldn't be getting away with the crap he peretrated in those early days of the show!
***Trayvon's Actions That Night Proved He Was Dangerous - It is completely irrelevant that Trayvon was a 17 yo. His actions that night—jumping and bludgeoning a man ("ground-and-pound" style, according to an eyewitness) who was doing nothing illegal, nothing harmful, and at the time of being attacked, was minding his own business—proved that Trayvon was a dangerous kid and not at all the innocent portrayed by the media.***
A real shame! You have f'n idiots thinking it's ok to shoot a child or he had it coming to him! Karma will catch up to you people! I will LMMFAO! Deflecting by bringing up a supposed past; why not look at Zimmerman's? He's been in trouble, assaulted a fiance, and had a restraining order put on him! Such hypocrisy from you people! Just pathetic!
***Whose prison sentences did you think were too harsh or light?***
ReplyDeleteObviously Beecher's sentence was too harsh! The judge actually came around to apologize due to her own guilt haunting her! She didn't do anything about it, so she can "kick rocks" as far as I'm concerned! He ruined his own life, but she helped it along!
***To be honest, I didn't think that Beecher's sentence was too tough. I mean, he was under the influence and killed someone - a young girl, and it wasn't as if drinking and driving had been a once off, the court had pointed out that he had been charged with DUI only a couple of months before it.
He got 15 years, with parole in 4. Four years seemed to be fair enough to me. However, Beecher was the one character on that show that DID NOT deserve the chaos and violence that he was subjected to. Itwould have been fairer to have remanded him to a different prison, low-security with less psychotic and sadistic inmates, without a doubt!***
I guess I'm haunted by the cummulative effect of Beecher's sentence! By being in OZ, he became a killer himself trying to defend himself from a prison guard, his children kidnapped (one being killed), and the murder of his father in that same hell hole! Again, you can say he's responsible for his own actions, but morally, the judge isn't going to get off so easily due to her ruling!
***What prisoners would you have liked to see encounter each other? - Schillinger and Burr Redding perhaps. I would've liked to have seen a conflict between these two.***
Schillinger wasn't half as tough as he thought! Redding would have mopped the floor with him! He hadn't been able to handle a guy like Beecher! He needs a lot of backup!
***How many of you were extremely satisfied that Adam Guenzel got raped? Never have I hated a TV character more than him. After Beecher tries to protect him, he betrays him. What an ass. I didn't like Winthrop either, but Guenzel seemed arrogant and bragged about his crimes to fellow inmates. I hate the Aryans, but I'm glad they raped his punk ass; bitch.
Here's the scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWtjkoyXcvw ***
The betrayal made no sense! He was reacting to Beecher's relationship with Keller and thought he was on the menu! What a moron! Didn't bother me in the least to see him laying there in a pool of his anal blood! The one that bothered me was Schibetta; raped once by Adebesi, then by the Aryans with Schillinger!
***Anyone else hate that Peter Schibetta? - Seriously one of the most annoying characters ever on the show. I couldn't wait till Adebisi took him out, then when he returned in season 5, I couldn't wait til Schillinger took him out, and finally in the last season, I jumped for joy when he got killed.***
Poor guy, he was a spoiled brat and couldn't stand up for himself or his own! He would have been the perfect prag but for his connections to the mob! They would sooner knock him off it seems!
*** I'm a hardcore fan of The Wire so its fun seeing JD Williams playing Kenny.***
My first experience with Kenny was seeing him tied down and gagged by Adebesi! I wasn't sure he was being used, but he appeared young and impressionable! Later he's playing the tough guy, a valued lieutenant in the drug trade in OZ, but I lost all sympathy for him and his plight when he ordered the 'hit' on his baby's mother! His own mother called the prison and ratted her out! I guess she was supposed to stay celibate while he was in jail!
***Did Schillinger rape Cyril? I'm pretty sure he did but still not 100%.***
ReplyDeleteYeah, he got him early on, but Ryan got him transferred to Em City later to look after him! He was attacked a couple more times, but fended them off; Robson for one!
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_O%27Reily -
***He did. They showed the beginning of it with Schillinger telling Cyril that before he would take him to see Ryan he would have to do something for him. Later Cyril in a scene with Dr. Nathan confirms he was raped in that scene.
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Did anybody have a hard time having sympathy for Schillinger losing both his sons considering the crimes they did (esp. Hank)?***
Neither had to follow in their father's lowlife footsteps! No sympathy at all! They weren't brainwashed! Plenty of kids have rotten parents, but that doesn't stop them from excelling and making themselves better and a positive influence on others! If it was predetermined that "like father, like son," we might as well kiss away the possibility that racism and other bigotries will fade away in the future! We would be truly doomed and in the South, that appears to be the case when you hear the ugly nonsense coming out of people's mouthes just because Obama was elected twice! How stupid do you have to be to keep saying aloud, "He's not American or he's not a real American," but at the same time accepting McCain and Cruz who definitely weren't born in the States? That's hatred and ignorance that hasn't been overcome and it's 2013! It's so sick!
***Does it annoy the hell out of anybody else how STUPID Beecher was when he kept visiting Oz after being released from there?
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Hell yeah I was pissed! I lost all respect and sympathy for Beecher b/c he won't leave Keller the fuck alone! It was a prison thing; let it go! You got kids and a hot ass lawyer girlfriend waiting for you on the outside! The "WTF's wrong with you Beech? You went so hard when you beat the crap outta Schillinger and went all wolverine."***
OZ became a home away from home! Some admit to commiting crimes to go back in! Happens all the time! Repeat offenders shouldn't surprise people regardless of their education, class, status, and family support! Beecher lost it all more than once; culminating in the death of his kid and father! All of it associated with being in OZ! Even the judge who sentenced him came for a visit to lift a burden from her soul about him being there!
***The most startling scene for me was when Keller and Beecher said goodbye in S 4 when Keller was shipped out. Instead of making me uncomfortable as man2man scenes usually do, I was actually choking up. The power and resonance in that scene, the emotion, the longing - wow.
Characters I love: Keller, Beecher, Adebesi, Ryan O'Reilly
Characters I love to hate: Robson, Wangler, Timmy Clark and that psycho female CO.
The writers did a great job of designing characters that get under your skin.
...Dr Nathan and the Chinese interpreter were hot. I'm surprised he hasn't ended up balls deep in Glynn's very sexy secretary. In fact, I was sure she was gonna hook up with Leo, esp. when his wife wanted a divorce, but it hasn't happened yet.***
Which is why my blog for the show asks if "it's a love story?" It might be hyperbole, but the kisses they gave to one another were the most passionate I've seen in memory! They actually murge as one person even if bars are between them! I have a faint memory of them being on a red carpet recently and they gave each other a peck for the cameras! You know people think about them as a couple more than anything else going on in OZ!
***Does anybody have a complete list of every person who was killed over the course of the show? I was thinking of two columns. One for those victims who landed the perpetrators in jail and the second for the people killed over the course of the episodes.***
ReplyDeleteToo many to count; incl. the Warden (Glenn), guards (one killed by Tobias with his sharpened fingernails), and of course plenty of inmates! Good luck!
***Imagine Oz started up again...- I'm not in favor of a rehash, but it would be fun to revisit some of these characters. Maybe a 2-hour movie centered on one inmate, following him from crime to trial, to time in Oz, and ultimately to death. During his time in Oz we could catch up with everything else that's happened.***
I agree! Was looking for a movie produced to clear up all the losse ends! IT really was running out of gas by the end! So much wasn't resolved, explained, with a lot just ignored and forgotten!
***Can you give me a reason why to watch the show because I'm not sure?***
If you "get off" on gratuitous violence and prison sex/rape, this is the show for you! lol! It's enough to make sure I stay a good boy! If they tried to send me there, I'd ask for "Escape From NY" disintegration! lol! Even visitors to this place are in jeapardy! It's well acted and has its moments of civility!
***Ok you've sold me.***
The reason my blog is labeled "OZ: A Prison Drama or Love Story" was b/c of Keller and Beecher! The passion they had in a simple kiss was the most blind-blowing considering they're both straight! Hamlin and Ontkean in "Making Love" comes close though! Beecher and Keller become one person; check videos at the bottom of the page to see what I mean!
***Robson seeks out that big bald guy for protection and in return has to become the guy's bitch, but what I don't understand is he has to bend over whilst the guy puts a spoon up his anus. Why was he doing that and why was Robson screaming so much? I's not the biggest object in the world to cause so much distress.***
It wasn't for Robson to feel good; "believe me!" It was a sadomasochistic thing really! Some people get off inflicting pain and discomfort on someone! If you're not accustomed to that sort of thing, even a pencil is too much!
***So what actually happened to Reverend Cloutier? - What about once he was all burned up and in the hospital bed? He couldn't just walk away given the physical state he was in.***
He was bricked up in a wall, but psychically he was influencing things, haunting some prisoners until he was found! It was one of those wierd plotholes they're famous for in this show!
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I forgot about him being burned! While he was in the infirmary, that was when he was sending psychic messages to inmates to kill or attack certain inmates! For some reason I thought he was walled up and left for dead! It's been over 10 years since I've seen it and my brain is a bit scrambled! He may have been missing and they probably never explained it!
***McManus said that he plans on dividing Emerald City into the 10 factions right?
ReplyDeleteMuslims - Gangsters - Latinos - Italians - Irish - Aryans - Bikers - Christians - Gays - Others
And he said that only 4 members of each group will remain in Em City. Now it was pretty clear in that episode that Beecher, Hill, Rebadow, and Busmalis are the four members of the Others. But during the lunch scene and with the amount of Blacks still walking around the prison and the amount of Aryans still there, I'm confused. Shouldn't there only be 40 characters walking around the prison, yet there's still at least over 100 prison inmates milling around the show. Did I misunderstand what McManus said about 4 members per gang for Em City or is this a mistake by the show?
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Who is the most disgusting character in the entire series? My choice would be Schlinger with Adebisi a close second. Your choices?***
Disgusting? Top of the list will always be a loser like O'Reilly! He just can't help but destroy everything and everyone around; esp. his own brother who he says he cares so much about! Schillinger is next, losing family and friends trying to exact revenge on Beecher for disobedience for the most part!
***The hole? Why naked? How long is the stay? It seems much shorter than normal solitary confinement which is usually at least a month.***
They want them to avoid any kind of desperate act like suicide while in the hole!
***...Also Keller was obviously bi and I think the creepy Aryan guy was too (the one whose dick Beecher bit off.) I think there was a mix of situational homosexuality and actual homosexuality going on in the prison.***
With no access to ladies, you go with what's available! If they worked farms, it wouldn't take long to use that avenue! You seem to be giving credit to these animals for rational thought! Men will find a way to use a warm wall if that's all that's available!
***How would Walter White (Heisenberg) fare in Oz? I tried posing this question on the BB boards, but it didn't gain any traction b/c those boards are overloaded right now. Would Heisenberg be a prison leader or more along the lines of Busmalis?***
I still haven't gotten caught up in the BB hysteria! Never seen it even though the news talks about it incessantly! It appears this character is one step from being totally institutionalized! He seems to be same as insane character from "No Country For Old Men!"
***Not really even close. He's a criminal mastermind, but also a regular middle-aged man living a life full of regret.
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Why wasnt August Hill ever raped or beaten up at all? People almost have a "they've been through enough" kind of respect and interaction with them. You don't fuck with handicapped people, or people who have a terminal illness, etc.***
You're kidding right? I'm no expert on disabled and handycapped people, but I can imagine a lot of bullying! You're giving credit to people having a conscience! How many have you heard knocked out of their chairs, robbed, assaulted, & chair taken? You saw at the end, he was being abused by cons who have no conscience and thought nothing of putting him back in his place when he got a little too lippy! He was murdered IIRC! I don't have such high regard for our populous! Bullies flourish due to ignoring and condoning that type of behavior in and outside of "the joint!"
***Anyone else hate that Miguel? - I HATE this fucking character even more than others. ...Can someone just kill him and Busmalis character. Miguel is so unbelievably cocky, yet approaching legal retardation. He's always crying like a little bitch and doesn't own up to the idiotic decisions he makes. At least the other leads of the show (Schillinger, Adebisi, Beecher, Keller, Said, Rebadow, McManus) aren't spending every other episode crying like a toddler in a damn prison of all places. This character is so annoying. I mean the actor's great, but I just dread going through Season 4 and waiting for this dickhead to come back from escaping.***
ReplyDeleteYou guys make it out like he was literally crying! That wasn't going on at all! He was a chronic whiner, but it was normal complaining of the hand he was dealt! He caused a lot of his troubles; getting beat by guards and almost starved to death, rubbing feces all over the walls of his solitary cell, and knocking off a few inmates when needed!
***I kind of felt frustrated for the guy. Things always went bad for him. Man, he really fell far at the end.***
He was isolated, pretty much run out of his gang; and made an enemy! He had to be on guard all the time and he just slowly went insane!
***Adebisi's death affected me! When Kareem and Adebisi got into that death match in the cell, I was sad because they were two of my favorite characters and I wanted them both to make it. I thought his death was pretty epic, but the show really wasn't as good after he exited. On the flip side, I was happy when that punk ass Kenny Wangler got capped! "Bye BITCH!"***
Oh I wrote saying the same thing! He just wasn't too swift; talking back to Adebisi while tied down all night, then putting a contract out on his baby's momma when he found out she was getting busy with someone else! His own mom dropped a dime on her! She probably just wanted to get her hands on the kid! He was a true punk and he wasn't missed!
***Which characters death was the most justified? - ...the younger punk who kept on bullying the weak guy that Adebisi eventually left the gun with. When he pulled that gun and the kid soiled himself, I was rooting for him.***
They gave Adebisi a doctorate to work that psychological mind FUCK! I guess he knew he couldn't just shoot his way out so he used the gun another way! Amazing how they give and take away IQ points in some programs!
***It took me several episodes to notice the difference btw the music teacher and McManus' ex-wife. I kept thinking: Wait, McManus used to be married to O'Reilly's mom? Dang, everyone in OZ really *is* inbred. Still, it's like everyone lives in some tiny town where they all either work at the prison or they're interred there.***
ReplyDeleteThat's what made the show a soap opera; and totally unbelievable! You have whole families on both sides of the bars in this one prison! That made no sense to me! The only people that didn't show up was Glynn's parents; even his daughter coming into play with a past rape! Beecher's kids were kidnapped and father killed due to inmates! O'Reilly, brother, and father featured for a few years! There was a lot of overlap that just wasn't possible in real life!
***Well, I'm told prisons tend to be nearby small towns...you know, for distance purposes for the workers. McManus said that he lived in one when he was a child. So, maybe Oz was too. They never specify. But actually, I agree with Fiero425. I hated McManus' ex-wife and O'Reilly's mom. After a while, everybody's relative just started coming around. Why couldn't the state liason just be a state liaison? Why couldn't a performing arts teacher just be a performing arts teacher? Why do they have to be related to some main character in some way? It really cheapened the show, IMO.
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What is this show like/about? - At its root, Oz is about prisoners. What made me really like Oz was seeing how the different groups and organizations interacted. You have Blacks, Muslims, Aryans, Hispanics, Italians, and random hangers-on. You get to see how each different gang struggle for power. It's also fun to watch prisoners making back-room deals (using the "the enemy of my enemy is a friend" philosophy). It's definitely sensationalized, but not too over the top (well, except for the last season).***
For the time, 12+ years ago, I found it haunting with some of the most gratuitous sex & violence I'd ever seen in a cable drama! You never knew who was going to get it next (sex or murdered); an inmate, guard, or visitor! All concerned were psycho to some extent with whole families coming into play; inmates, social workers, and even the warden! A mother might have worked in the place with a couple sons locked up, father/sons, warden/daughter (raped)!
***I was wondering why McManus has a hallucination about Dino Ortolani during the prison riot?***
ReplyDeleteIt's been over 10 years since I saw it, but McManus probably had a lot of guilt he never got through to Ortolani! To die so horribly is still haunting because it wouldn't have happened without complicity of guards! OZ was created to deal with people like him and Alvarez with a touch of cultural integration!
***IIRC Ortolani was just one of many inmates who had already died in S1 and Tim hallucinated all of them. So to him it was a sign that his project was on the verge of total failure.***
True enough, he had so many comebacks, he woke the inmates one day saying it; "I'm baaacck!" That may have been after Quarles was ran off suggesting Glynn destroy tapes produced by Adebisi with all the debauchery going on!
***Was it ever explained or implied why Wolfgang Cutler named Miguel Alvarez as his sole beneficiary at the time of death? I can't figure it out. It drove me nuts. I thought they'd outright explain it completely by the end, but they never did, to my knowledge. I just wanna know if I missed something.***
If it was explained, it didn't sink in! I do remember cash, car, and property involved! I think Cutler's daughter showed up and Alvarez took a liking to her! He may have signed some of it over to her! After that it's all a blank; sorry!
***One of my favorite moments of McManus yelling was at Beecher in s5 for wanting to transfer out of working in the mail room, after just transferring there. McManus to Beecher: "You asked to work in the mailroom. Until you give me a legitimate reason why you can't, YOU STAY IN THE FUCKING MAIL ROOM!"***
It's been 10 years, but IIRC when Beecher took or left jobs, a lot of the time a deal had been made for the consideration! His deal with Schillinger must have lapsed for him to leave the mailroom after agreeing to do it earlier!
***What could've been done differently in seasons 5 and 6? - Should have kept Beecher away from Oz after being released.***
If not for Beecher and Keller, it would cease being "a true prison love story!"
***Why was this show so cartoonish? It's like every terrible prison stereotype in one (terrible) show. It's obvious the writers don't know the first thing about actual prison.***
Examples? From what I've read, anything is possible in prison including hookers, drugs, and running organized crime in our streets! Been going on since my days of the 60's with the Black Panthers! I remember as a child, those nurse murders with Richard Speck! While in prison, a tape was produced with him being owned by someone who got him breat implants of all things! Any drug was available to them! Anything's possible in prison I guess; ANYTHING! What's so unbelieveable about "OZ?" The tunneling out was a bit much, but it happens; just not as frequently as Busmalis! "Hits" are made on other prisoners for a lot less than a "pack of smokes" in real life!
***Am I the only one to have found OZ to be nothing short of farcical? Aside from passable performances by SOME of the cast, doing the best they can with the laughable material and their below-par colleagues.***
ReplyDeleteI never thought it was that great, just entertaining for some people who'd like to see what goes on in prison! Overall, I think things are light-hearted in comparison to the real thing! OZ looks relatively clean and well managed when looking at prison documentaries routinely showing them acting like total animals; throwing urine and feces! Attacks of other prisoners and guards are always a possibility! IIRC, OZ didn't become ridiculous and silly until Cloutier's psychic plotline and story of Cyril O'Reilly with the drug trial that aged him!
***Who in their right mind would ever want to have sex with that? Alright maybe if you're a prisoner on a long (and I mean long) stretch, like a lifer or something. But other than that, why? I understand McManus's character and everything, but for God's sake man, have some pride. I would rather have sex with a cheese grater than put my penis anywhere near her. Not only is she hideously FUGLY with weird boobs, she sucks as a person and that's clear within 30 seconds of meeting her. ...Let her beat me up and send me to ad-seg, I have too much respect for my genitals. There is not enough heroin in the world to make that woman remotely attractive.***
Just proves "straight guys" just don't care; as long as it's a recepticle of some sort! O'Reilly and Keller got tired of her real quick though! They were lucky to still be alive; that's one psycho bitch!
***Steve Buscemi...I've seen the series (as a whole) probably 6 or 7 times now and have noticed he directed a couple of episodes. seems a shame that he never acted in any episodes. Off the top of my head I can't think of a character he could have played or maybe they could've made one for him. Not anything big, maybe just 1 ep., come in and get killed or something. But it seems like such a missed oppurtunity with such a good actor who can play evil really well.***
He's so "type-cast" in being a sleazebag!
***Yeah, but tell me he wouldn't have made a better Colonel than the actor who played him. The Colonel in s4 who befriends Burr; Buscemi would've been great at that.***
OCO, Steve much too weaselly to play that role! The colonel was a trained, disciplined marine! I couldn't imagine Buscemi being able to play the "muscle" for anyone in prison; sorry!
***Henry Stantson...Very minor character, but did anyone else find him unintentionally funny? - I had to look up who you meant. He was pretty forgettable. Now Zabitz, he was funny.***
Ditto; utterly forgetable! He's always playing a second-rater, not able to lead, just a few sandwiches short of a picnic! He's been typecast as an idiot, bigot, homophobe, and wife-beater!
***...As for it's acclaim, that comes from the fact that it was not only HBO's 1st hour long scripted drama, but it was basically the 1st(or one of the first) show to make bad and evil men sympathetic. ...Which I feel has helped pave the way for shows like Sopranos, Breaking Bad, DEXTER, etc. And the acting I feel is spot-on. Sure some actors/characters aren't that great, but the characters and performances of schillinger, Kareem, Beecher, Keller, Ryan, Cyril, Leo, McManus, Adebisi, Nathan, Alvarez, and many others are top notch (IMO) and many of the actors are greatly underrated.***
***How dare Robson sit in a room with geniune rape victims sharing there embarassing past with each other and Robson says he never had a choice. I've said this in another post, it only takes COMMON SENSE to realize that what Robson is saying is a lie and that CUTLER NEVER RAPED HIM ONCE.***
ReplyDeleteRobson has to convince himself it's rape! He doesn't want to say to himself, much less a group that he willingly went into a contract with his eyes wide open! Robson's a true lowlife; and stupid! The dental thing was his own fault harrassing and threatening the dentist! Robson brings on all his own troubles it seems!
***No doubt he brings his own trouble and is a lowlife, but I don't think he has to convince himself it was rape; knows fully damn well it wasn't. Whether or not he'll admit it is another thing, but he knows it wasn't rape. It was rape when his dad did it to him (as he said to Pete earlier). But he knows he just won't admit it and is an even bigger lowlife for scamming his way into that meeting. Peter belongs there, not him.
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I was never a fan of Tommy Kirk; neither the character or the actor, but he does/should rank high on the most evil character list. He really is sick and twisted.***
The Cloutier thing was made more sick just b/c the Rev. didn't take Kirk up on a "personal offer!" He was spurned; plain and simple! Sick bastard!
***Agreed! BTW, about Toby Beecher's Imprisonment ...It's true the car accident he caused was brutal, but I don't think he deserved prison. He was clearly a nice guy, went crazy for awhile on the 'inside', but got paroled eventually before getting re-admitted (thanks to Keller's trap). After all, he started out as a loving husband wearing a suit and tie for work at the office everyday. Too bad he ended up as Keller's 'butt-buddy' instead in a cramped jail cell, even though that was erotic.***
It's been well over ten years, but why was he driving drunk; bottle in hand? Had his wife died or something? The kids were alive and well back then before kidnapping later! His father hadn't been murdered yet as well in OZ!
***Cyril was most likely a giant piece of shit until the brain damage, right? - Pretty much. Him and Ryan were about the same growing up and getting into all kinds of trouble. Was he brain dead when he murdered Dr Nathan's husband on Ryan's orders? I can't remember the timeline from when he got brain damage from the beatdown he received at the funeral.***
Yeah; Cyril was already damaged goods when he knocked off that guy! I have a faint recollection of him being in the back seat of the guys car! Not sure how or why he went through with it, but caught promptly! Needless to say he wasn't sharp enough to cover his tracks and sent to OZ to be with his "loving bro!" Even after that, Ryan continued to manipulate the guy; almost to his death! That's one of the reasons I found O'Reilly to be one of the most vile of characters, stirring the pot behind the scenes of the crap going on "inside!"
***It's implied that he was a piece of shit, but not as big as Ryan. Ryan tells a couple stories where you get the impression that he was always pulling Cyril's strings. Not that Cyril was innocent, but that Ryan may have influenced him more than Cyril using his free will. He was brain damaged before he killed Dr. Nathan's husband. He got that way with Ryan, so if he's in prison calling Cyril, telling him to kill the guy, he was definitely already damaged.***
***Who is the sickest most evil character; Vernon Schillinger or The Governor?***
ReplyDeleteEasily the Governor! Vern is a disgusting product of his environment! Devlin is running game on the state; acting totally different in front of the camera while behind the scenes to cover his arse and others, knocks off that mayor with impunity! Said embarrassed him like no other by "not accepting his pardon!" That was impressive!
***Um...I think the OP was referring to The Governor from The "Walking Dead."***
Well I guess I'm out of touch! I've never watched that show; or any other that people say we must watch! Never seen the Sopranos, The Wire, and a host of other "mustsee tv" shows! I made a pact with myself ages ago not to get caught up in any new programming! Trying to ween myself off by focusing on sports, cable news, and my huge tape & DVD collection! Been letting my faves end without replacing them like the Law & Order franchise, "Without A Trace, Cold Case," etc.!
***I really related to Cyril. I was pissed off through the whole series Vern tricked him into being raped, but that must be the realistic side of American prison, that these Aryan brotherhood fags are just a bunch of vultures who will rape anything.***
...but they're not GAY! Gotta keep that "straight;" so to speak!
***They can try to deny it, but giving or receiving they're getting hard/turned on by another man still makes them gay. Even my gay cousin and his boyfriend agree with this.***
In prison, you expect animals to attack, but in 24 hour lockups, young cubs are in jeapardy just as much! That's what kills me; tough guys molesting some kid and both arrested that day, but "I'm straight with plenty of kids outside!" Ridiculous!
***I just finished the final episode of Oz and when Cyril does die this time, no emotion, they built up more emotion to the "failed" execution when it's called off.
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My sister and I thought we were going to cry when Cyril was about to get executed the 1st time. I think it was that damn background music that was playing.***
It's been well over 10 years since I've seen that scene, but from what little I do remember, it was the injustice of the whole thing! We all know this guy is brain dead and can be conned into doing anything by Ryan or anyone else with a pulse! He proved in those last months that even a 'sock puppet' gave him ideas on what to do!
***Was Alonzo Torquemada (Bobby Cannavale) an asexual or something? - I don't think he was asexual when he made it obvious to Alvarez that he wanted to sleep with him...which ended up happening.
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No he didn't; when did Alvarez turn into a prag?***
Alvarez wasn't turned into a prag! He was pretty much seduced by Alonzo with the help of a pharmacutical! How this guy could walk around a prison holding a drug store was beyond me! Alvarez shut down for the most part; just staring out into empty space while things happened!
***Part of the writers not giving a fuck since it was the last season.***
It wasn't "must see tv" for me anymore by then! By the time Cyril had gone through that experimental drug testing, I was like "if I'm home, I'll try it!" A lot of times, I'd surf around during the show! I missed a lot of scenes those last couple seasons! It just wasn't the same towards the end!
***I essentially loved this show during it's original run, but later on upon repeated viewings find it horrible now?***
ReplyDeleteIt was cutting edge 10-15 years ago! It was well done for the time before "The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad," & other cable series got started!
***I'm seeing similarities in "Orange Is The New Black," i.e. where they show an inmate & then give you a little of their "back story," which I love with 'OITNB.' Anyway, this is a VERY cool show & you're right----show started in '97 and it's still got that up-to-date feel.
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That it was and believe it or not that's what I still respect about "Oz" today. It doesn't change the fact though that it's a bad show and it did rely far too much on shock value rather then actual "coherent" character development to move the story lines along. The later seasons esp. are unwatchable because of it. They look and play more like a day time soap then a hard hitting prison drama.
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Yeah, unfortunately, "Oz" would end up being surpassed by the shows it sprung forth (already mentioned by Fiero). I still respect and love it for being the innovator of gritty TV shows, but I dunno...I guess all the shows they gave birth to surpassed it in quality. They're so good that you look at "Oz" and think, "Nah, there's no excuse. Tom should have taken his time a little more."
I don't like the red herrings sometimes used (cheap), everybody being related to each other, ass pulls (that Maxim magazine thing), etc. They cheapened the show no doubt. The first 4 seasons are still awesome though. Season 4B is here and there, but it was solid for the most part.
The last 2 seasons, with the exception of the long-term characters, just were not good. They make me wish "Oz" ended at Season 4 like it was going to initially. In fact, if I ever see the alternate version of 'Famous Last Words,' I am accepting that as the true ending.
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Maybe you should go and watch Prison Break or something, no penis, no religion, no plot, no fun...you should enjoy it.***
I never watched "Prison Break" for that very reason; "no penis!"
***watched the 1st season b/c I was such a fan of "Oz." It's awful. It amazes me that people give "Oz" such a hard time for how unrealistic it is. Watch "Prison Break" and then say that "Oz" is the unrealistic prison show. It's garbage.
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I hate Robson, but I think it was fair to say he "didn't have a choice" - if your only choices are forced unwanted sex or death/grievous injury, is that really a choice? I'm not saying Cutler deliberately raped him, but to Robson it felt like rape and that's what counts in terms of the therapeutic process. ...you always have the right to say "no, let me amend that statement." That whole "binding sex slave agreement" argument has been tried in court before and it NEVER holds up b/c guess what? Consent isn't a binding agreement, it's an ongoing negotiation between both parties.***
I agree this situation wasn't coerced in the least! Robson was looking for protection; and not from Cutler! He could have rescinded consent if he wanted; Cutler wouldn't have done anything, but the thing is w/o being his prag, Robson was vulnerable to other prisoners! Rape is not the right word to use in this situation! Turned into a willing sex slave is the proper definition of this!
***Yes it is a choice. Robson could be a man and take what's coming to him, b/c HE'S THE ONE WHO STARTED IT WITH THE ITALIANS or you can be a bitch sex slave. THAT IS A CHOICE, YES IT IS. It's not a good choice by any means, but still a choice. And you're right, it's not a binding agreement. Did we ever see Robson take it back? Did we ever once see Robson tell Cutler he didn't want to? No we didn't. ...If Robson wants to think he's been raped that's fine, but he's wrong and an idiot and shall get no sympathy from me....I have sympathy for Beecher and Winthrope and the other prags who were forced, but I don't have any for a character who started a fight, got scared cause he had no backup, then made a deal for protection. To be clear, I have sympathy for what happened to him as a kid though.
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Who has the best catchphrase? Kirk: "How'd you like a blowjob?" I'm gonna make like Spock and go with Kirk.***
I never understood the power Kirk had over people; except Cloutier of course! That rough biker followed his orders like he was really something! Kirk wasn't big, tough, or anything really but gay! How did he work it to have Cloutier roughed up? Who approved the photo shoot that got him killed off; Glenn? Must have been him! I have to go look up who knocked him off! Can't remember; been over 10 years since I've seen it!
***How many kids did Beecher have? So originally, Beecher had 2 young kids, and 1 was murdered by Hank. However I am watching season 6 right now and he has mentioned a few times about having more than 1 kid has been spending time with. What did I miss? Did another kid just appear?***
It's been years since I've seen it, but he had at least 2 kids; 1 daughter, 1 son! Hank Shillinger abducts and severs the hand of Beecher's son and sends it to him in OZ! Priest talked Vern Shillinger into being civil human being and had the girl returned!
***He has 3 children. He's always had 3 kids - Gary, Holly, and Harry. In s1, besides Gary and Holly, there is mention of another baby. In s4, when Beecher tells Keller that his kids got kidnapped, he says, "At least the baby Harry is safe." Gary is the one that ended up dead.***
Shows how much I know! I had no idea there was a baby! I really watched the show off and on back then! Was very busy with my sister and her newborn triplets! I missed a lot of stuff driving back and forth, staying with them for a couple weeks at a time, and other distractions! I've since bought the DVD, but haven't sat down for a marathon to catch up!
***The ending of the show - Beecher's story was properly ended in terms of who he became as a man. When he entered Oz, he was confused, self-pitying; he was at his lowest. He couldn't stand on his own 2 feet.
ReplyDeleteHe was the only one smiling in the last episode. Tom said he smiled because he realized that in the end, he came out on top. Schillinger and Keller were dead and out of his life, the Aryans were no more. All his enemies were smoked and he was still alive. He took pride in that. Sure, he might get sentenced longer and maybe even to death, but in that moment, he was relieved. It was over; was all finally over. That's what mattered in the end, and Beecher's journey had come to a proper end riiiiiight there. He had survived Oz and was a better man for it.
As for Alvarez, his story had also ended in terms of who he chose to become. Throughout the series, he was forced to question how he had been living up to when he entered prison. By season 5, he decided that it was time to turn over a new leaf and start taking steps to being better. In the last episode, when he was pretty much told that he'd be spending his whole life in prison, he just gave up. He just said "fuck it." He might as well get used to it. So, he became a toy - Torquemada is going to use him for voyeuristic purposes and Alvarez is going to allow himself to be used as long as Torquemada supplies him with free drugs. He just shut down; gave up. Story ended.***
Very nicely summarized; very much as I see it! Will have to copy/paste it to my blog for prosterity and future recollection!
***In season 3, why was Adebisi tying Kenny to the bed? Kenny was also naked. Are we supposed to think that Adebisi made Kenny his prag (he seemed to be touching him kind of sexually). Or was it just a humiliation thing? I didn't think Kenny was being raped...but maybe?
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I also think he was raping him. It was to establish dominance. The thing is, if you watch...when Wangler wakes up, he seems surprised to find that he's tied to the bed. That's the only thing that makes me doubt that he was being pragged. Why would he be surprised about that if the night before he was getting it? But I really do think Adebisi pragged him for humiliation purposes.***
I think he was just teaching Kenny a lesson in "who's boss?" You know how Kenny was; talking crap he couldn't back up against real men? He was "just" a punk kid!
***Dean Winters' role on SVU was only 13 eps, B.D. Wong was only a recurring character on SVU during the years OZ was on (and a lot of J.K. Simmons' scenes on L&O were 1 or 2 scenes every few eps type things whereas Meloni basically headlined SVU.
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Chris Meloni said he initially asked to leave the show b/c he wanted to focus on "Law and Order: SVU." Tom didn't want him to leave, so he wrote Keller out in a way that he could come back if he wanted to. Meloni ended up missing Oz so much that he eventually asked if he could come back, and Tom said, "Of course!" Chris said it was indeed a real bitch to juggle the 2 shows, but he wanted so much to make it work that he saw it through.***
***Inmates Who Should Have Never Been Allowed In Em City - For starters, I still don't see how Adabesi and Pacamo didn't get the death penalty. Adebisi decapitated an undercover cop and Pacamo pretty much did the same thing that Shirley Ballinger did. Em City should have been a low-risk inmate facility, but I guess it would've made for a boring show.***
ReplyDeleteIt seemed to be a "brain-child" of McManus and his idea was on the line of Noah; 2 of everything including murderers and rapists! It ended up just giving more opportunity and freedom to conspire, trade, and murder other inmates! The program was a joke! You need characters with flaws, but some redeeming values! These animals were beareth of any soul it seemed to me!
***Which character has the nicest penis? It would be great to see a list. Leo's nephew and Jazz Hoyt are my two favorites.***
Hands down, Hoyt always comes to mind! I still remember him being kicked into solitary confinement cell nude and he was "big;" not as long as Prince Allah, but very impressive nonetheless!
***I just noticed that Ryan O'Reilly has a positively ace penis. - I agree... Hoyt was nice for a white boy...lol... Didn't Supreme Allah's also show his? If so, i think I recall it also looking nice.***
I think Prince Allah's was flopping around while he kicked over Augustus' wheelchair and assaulted the man in the shower! Hill does mouth off at inopportune times!
***Who stabbed Keller? Shortly after Keller rats on Schillinger about Beecher's set up, he's stabbed, but who does it? Beecher implies that he could have done it, but never confirms so who was it?***
Keller had made the rounds so often, knocking off other inmates! He's no fan fave in OZ; maybe self-preservation involved! He was so feared, another con "vaporlocked" when it looked inevitable with Stabler and another assassin cornering him!
***It had to have been Beecher. It was purposely left up in the air, but I really do think it was him. The arms look like Beecher's, and then there's the fact that he knew what Keller was doing when he got stabbed.
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Dino Ortolani did not look Italian - In reality, the actor playing him was half Italian, half Puerto Rican.***
He goes back and forth in his ethnic portrayals; Spanish in some, Italian in others! One of my old faves had him Italiano detective; "Homicide: Life On The Street!"
***I just find that he looks 100% Latino.***
***It's never as good as season 1 again is it? I'm in the midst of watching the show and have to say it's been a slow slide downhill since the end of season 1. S 2 & 3 were both very good, but in S 4 there's some pretty soapy writing and it's hard to care about character deaths when they're so frequent.***
ReplyDeleteWhen a show is on that many years, it can't stay consistant indefinitely; esp. with cast and production direction changes! Meloni left to concentrate on "SVU" but came back! Agreed, by season 4, it was hard to watch! I missed a lot of it; esp. when Cyril went through changes with "aging" drug!
***That aging drug story was ridiculous; every single scene. Then they just dropped it. The scene where Gloria mentions it at the meeting you can practically hear the show jumping the shark. My fave scene of the whole story though has to be when Ryan approaches Gloria to ask to be included. Dean Winters' delivery is so earnest and sincere when he says, "Gloria make old." ...The scene where a gray haired Cyril wakes up and says "Ryan, I don't feel good!" was hilarious too.
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Why did Keller did all these homo murders? He's sociopathic, but still I've never really got it b/c when he killed during the show he had his reasons. Why did he kill those 3 guys just after having sex w/ them? He said that he didn't want them to tell someone that they had sex; but why? ...do they suppose that it was rape b/c he killed them just after sex...?
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But in OZ everyone was "gay," meaning they would have sex with men all the time. So there was not a problem there. I don´t think he raped those men, but killed them so that they wouldn´t tell about his sexuality. He was never really with men before, but instead married multiple times.***
This is a familiar refrain; from one extreme to another in trying to shame people so much, they'll do anything to keep it secret! I didn't think it could get as bad in '04 w/ the bigotry and outright hate proselytized by religious leaders, political cons, and "the right!" So many guys on the DL producing a fake life and family! I think that's why Stabler didn't mind being locked up! He could be as wild as he wanted and got his "picks" w/o worrying about being called a "fag!"
***Who stabbed Keller? - It was definitely Beecher who stabbed him, even if he never confirmed it. It was obvious b/c of the way he talked and knew a lot of details of what Keller was doing there. I don't blame him, Keller deserved it after what he did. They actually did so much shit to one another, but still they loved each other. Fighting was like preliminary for them.
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I don't think it was love, but rather obsession.***
That's what I should re-entitle my blog; "Obsession Or Love Story?" lol!
***No! That's what some people think and that's actually shocking b/c it's not true. Yes, they obviously were obsessed with each other but there was love. ...I think the way Chris acted and died to finally let Beecher live shows that he loved him or the moment when he's transferred b/c he said that he killed Hank to protect Beecher. ...- But there was too much selfishness in Keller.***
As far I'm concerned, most kinds of love outside of their children is a selfish thing! "It's all about 'me' and I deserve this person or thing!" Love is more akin to stalking when it comes to people these days!
***I think the great thing about this show is that it can make us sympathize with even the worst of people. For example Schillinger is a sick sadistic monster but there's still been times when I've felt bad for him.***
ReplyDeleteI don't know how that's possible when you find out this man is capable of having children kidnapped, maimed, and killed all because he's frustrated with another prisoner "inside!" That's one sick f#ck and if there's any justice, he will truly burn in HELL!
***Who's the most disgusting character in the entire "OZ" series???
Top 5 worst people to me would be:
1. Malcolm Coyle - The guy who killed that family, raping the wife before killing the baby. He had no regrets. Even the rest of the prisoners wanted him dead.
2. Timmy Kirk - Turned into a complete little shit by the end. Imprisoned for putting what was apparently his own baby in a rat filled dumpster to die while the mother screamed. Then his entire religious and satanist stuff.
3. Vern Schillinger - A rapist, Nazi, & sadist who took pleasure in humiliating and degrading people. Killed innocents as well (Beecher's son, father and possibly his wife and brother. Probably responsible for many others).
4. Adebisi - Rapist, probably a psychopath. Did a lot of truly terrible things and had no regrets about it. Is also kind of the reason Kenny turned into such a little shit.
5. James Robson - Nazi rapist who took noticeable delight in torturing and generally hurting people.
Special mentions:
Claire Howell - Raped, beat, and murdered prisoners, was a complete sadist. Only redeeming thing about her is that when she finds out she's pregnant, she tries to change (we don't know how that went though).
Ryan O'Reily - Responsible for most of the deaths in Oz. Manipulated and hurt people even those he cared about incl. Gloria and Cyril. (Redeeming thing about him was that he was rather friendly and relatively sympathetic to people (his unlikely friendship with Beecher etc).)
Yuri Kosygin - The Russian assassin.
Devlin - Just an awful person who responsible for so much damage.
Christopher Keller- May or may not be a rapist, definitely a serial killer.
Raul El Cid Hernandez - Has Rivera blinded and basically destroys Alvarez b/c he 'doesn't like his face.'
Mike Healy - Selling drugs through Ryan, sets up Keene to be killed and films him killing the other prisoner in self defense. Responsible for Keene's execution. Got away with everything. May have been pulling strings in Oz even after he left the show.
Karl Metzger - A Nazi guard who abuses the inmates.
Len Lopresti - Another corrupt guard, a racist who is responsible for Andrew Schillinger's death. Later works on Death Row and sleeps with Shirley though does nothing to help her and she's executed.
Timmy Kirk may have been simply insane which would take him from my list. The list of the worst people not incl. the insane or repentant which IMO changes things.***
***Why was Mukada so obsessed with Alvarez? He was like an abused wife that kept pining for her husband, who never gave a shit about her. It was really pathetic to watch. Alvarez kept doing really fucked up things and Mukada kept babying him and treating him like he was the victim.***
ReplyDeleteI haven't watched any of it in 10 years, but he must know Alvarez's backstory and tries to give him every benefit...! Alvarerez never conformed, didn't fall in line with Morales and his stooges, and withstood so many attacks from within and without! He 'was' a victim; targeted by the guards, his ex-posse, and other groups more than likely! He's finally lost near the end, being fed drugs and probably being molested by Alonzo Torquemada!
***Obviously this is a high quality show based on it's rating and the level of praise I hear, but I'm hesitant mainly cause of the rape and other sexual stuff that goes on between the characters. Just curious from fans of the show how you would rate the sexual content from 1-10 based on it's consistency and realism. Also, has this show aged well?***
It wouldn't be realistic without rape and other relationships going on! That's what happens "in the can!" If anything we are kept from seeing how truly barbaric and uncivilized prison life can be depending on what state you're in at the time! I think this show can repeat 10 years from now, but actually be just as topical and tame in comparison to real life!
***Oh I know it wouldn't be realistic at all without rape. I'm just wondering how graphic it is.***
I must have a vivid imagination because I thought it was very graphic, but people tell me the producers leave a lot to the imagination! When you see Beecher and Keller going at it, it's more passionate with these 2 straight guys than I've seen with actual couples! It was hot and steamy; often Beecher on his knees servicing Keller or Robson! I really didn't watch much when Beecher was practically owned by Schillinger; "his prag!"
***Who is the most disgusting character in the entire series? - O'Reilly and Beecher.***
Beecher? Pls tell me it has more to do with his relationship to Keller? I'd use the word disappointing, not disgusting IMO! I picked Claire Howell; psycho guard, serial rapist, and murderer! Anyway, Beecher had a "blessed life" and was busted for DUI, vehicular homicide! The judge regreted the sentence later, but didn't do anything about it with her troubled conscience! He had a wife, 2 kids, another on the way, a highly respected father and head of a law firm where Beecher worked! Why was he driving drunk anyway?
***Nope! I just found him disgusting when he started to become a prison whore; not only with whites, but blacks too. Then he starts to become religious, then a huge smart arse. Whenever they showed his face I got sick looking at him; just remember how many cocks he sucked there.***
***JUST today started Oz... - I've only watched 2 episodes on S1 and I'm already hooked.....I won't peek ahead, but I'm hoping I've found another "Sopranos" or "Breaking Bad."
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I loved Oz all those yrs ago. '97? My God, has it been that long? Got hooked real quick, there was NOTHING like it that I've ever seen. ...Yes, it's still shocking & gruesome, but it has aged well imo. I still love it.***
***So is Cutler in the Brotherhood? When Cutler first comes in he asks Vern what he needs to do in order to join. Vern tells him to kill a black guy, Cutler picks Kareem. (Since Cutler really wasn't a badass and is really overrated as an evil character) He loses a fight and is almost killed by Omar White. Then Cutler prags out and protects Robson, even though Robson has been banished from the Brotherhood and no one will even talk to him. So it is assumed (or at least I did) that Cutler wasn't allowed in (since Omar beat him up). Then when Sister Pete comes to talk to Cutler, he's working in the mail room and all friendly w/ Vern. And then when he dies, Vern threatens Alvarez about giving Cutler's wife his stuff. So what's the deal? Was he in the Brotherhood or not?
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I believe Robson tied the noose too tight right? Is the implication that Robson didn't actually "murder" Cutler? I know what it is supposed to look like.***
IIRC, Robson actually made a deal with Vern to be re-instated in the AB if he knocked off Cutler! That was the only time I can remember Robson pulling something off actually planned down to letting it slip to Sister Pete that Cutler may be suicidal! Robson's just stupid muscle for the most part and his lack of intelligence has cost himself a lot of "pain!"
No smart person would threaten a dentist who is going to be doing some serious surgery in their mouth while being "knocked out!" Robson was the brilliant in bullying the East Indian dentist who implanted "black gums" into his mouth; which got him kicked out of the AB initially! He was far from pure after that; even after excising the gums himself with a razor! [roll] Gack! His other instance of "instant stupidity" was to abuse Beecher who's being forced into oral copulation! I wasn't surprised when he lost the tip of his penis! Can't remember if he swallowed or spit it out for re-attachment! I think it was found!
***No he didn't. The italians convinced him to do it for them and at the same time it may show the Brotherhood he has balls. schillinger was like whatever.***
Fine; you may be right! It's been years since I've seen the scene, but I have a very vivid memory of Robson "sideling" up to Vern on the "QT," not even looking at one another, speaking through bars and I thought a deal was struck! If you say I'm wrong; fine!
***Easy mistake, But I just did a rewatch very recently. Pancamo proposed the idea to Robson b/c cutler had hit him in the cafeteria. They owed him a favor and the Brotherhood may take notice.***
***Just got HBO - so can start to watch OZ for first time ever...any good?***
ReplyDeleteThat question's been asked at least once a week! I'm starting to believe it's the same instigator! lol! Obviously it's great w/ so much activity on this board and the show's been out of production for 15+ years! That tells you all you need to know! It was the "Godfather" of pay-cable series like "Breaking Bad, The Wire" and "The Sopranos!" It starts hot and progressively begins to slip, but stays entertaining to the last! Characters come and go, but sometimes not explained!
***When did Oz jump the shark? I love this show. It's one of my favorites, and I've re-watched it numerous times. It still holds up. - When the old guy had God tell him the winning lottery numbers. That was too ridiculous.
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Well, I'm perhaps not qualified to give a full opinion since I haven't finished the series yet and there's a chance it turns around but for me season 4 is the low point. By then I was just really numb to the deaths every episode and a lot of the writing for many of the characters started to tank. Things pick up towards the end of the first half but after Adebisi dies and McManus takes back control of Emerald City the season gets pretty directionless and as soon as the words "accelarated aging drug" were said I sort of lost a lot of respect for the show.***
Don't forget the Cloutier arc with him psychically telling people to kill other inmates from the infirmary after being found walled up and burned! Hoyt getting at and stabbing Kirk during a photoshoot was ridiculous too!
***What about the pyscho nurse who says "he's a nasty man" and kills Morales. Morales goes thru that whole show ducking hit attempts, being a hard core leader only to have his demise happen by the hands of some out of nowhere, crazy nurse? I didn't like that plot point.
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Most unrealistic plot devices or stories? - ...Alvarez being up for parole even though he blinded a CO and slashed another guy's throat.***
It all balances out with the CO's and other prisoners putting Alvarez in the crosshairs all the time! How he survives is amazing!
***Why was Gunzel a liability, but not Winthrop? Why'd they have Adam escape to die on the electric fence, but not kill Winthrop too? He could'a just as easily ratted them out for raping him too.***
I don't know if I'm spoiling it for anyone, but Winthrop was broken and "one of them" by then! He liked the power and exercized it by volunteering to "knock off" Beecher's dad! He wasn't very bright allowing knowledge of it so he was a goner when Chris took care of him in kind; IIRC!
***...and maybe Vern got worried when he was called to all those meetings with sister Pete.***
Now that you brought it up, Sister Pete was getting a little too close in Vern's opinion! I just don't understand why they go so far in teaching someone a lesson, that it's so hard to overlook indefinitely? I'm surprised the kid didn't die after such an attack; beaten and raped to a bloody pulp! I would have been praying for death! At the time, it was hard to feel sorry for the kid deciding he's going to play the tough guy and "turn" on Beecher! He had to be one of the stupiest prisoners ever! Most try to keep a low profile; he wanted to be a star, bragging about raping that girl that put him away with Winthrop!
***Before I say anything more, I understand that the people and events in these shows aren't real. This is just a fun thing I noticed while watching TV. My theory is that "Oz" and "House" are in the same fictional world. I say this b/c there is an episode of "House" where the patient of the week is a death row inmate named "Clarence" played by LL Cool J. There was also an "Oz" inmate named "Jiggy Walker," was played by LL Cool J. I believe that both "Clarence" and "Jiggy Walker" are the same person for the following reasons:
ReplyDelete- Jiggy Walker's first name was never revealed in "Oz," and assuming that "Jiggy" is a street nickname, this person's name is actually Clarence 'Jiggy' Walker.
- Both "Oz" and "House M.D." take place in New Jersey.
- The episode of "House" reveals that Clarence 'Jiggy' Walker murdered or assaulted multiple people (in a hallucination that Clarence had). Since the "House" episode is later chronologically and Clarence was up for parole in 2018, his other crimes (aside from the gangster he killed in the crime flashback in Oz, probably b/c that was in self-defense) could be explained as the following: Crimes he already went to prison for before Oz and was paroled, crimes he committed while in the prison he was transferred to after Oz, and crimes he was never actually charged with (possibly the mail man he supposedly killed in "House").
- Clarence only appears in a few episodes of "Oz" and is moved to Unit B where he isn't seen again. He probably was there for some time and then transferred to another New Jersey prison.
- Clarence mentioned in both shows that he has family who he's no longer in contact w/.
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...Peter Schibetta really. he was the most annoying character in the show. I was glad he got whacked.***
I know Schibetta was a d-bag, but I had such a thing for him years ago! I guess I got a vicarious thrill seeing his ass getting molested more than once! Very nice cheeks there! lol!
***I agree on Peter Schibetta. Yeah he was a bit of a cocky dick in his first appearance, but after all he went through in the next seasons (getting raped by Adebisi and the Aryans), I wanted to see the guy get some form of redemption. I also thought Warden Glynn's apathetic attitude towards Schibetta's second rape was out of character ("rape keeps prisoners in line"). Sure, Glynn had reasons to dislike Schibetta, but he was still a man of the law and always tried to do the right thing. Overall, I felt like creator Tom Fontana had some perverse thrill in making Schibetta's life as miserable as possible.***
I haven't seen any of the show in 10 years, but IIRC everything about Glynn was out of character near the end! Taken up with that woman at the prison, ignored warnings of poisoning in solitary, getting rid of the tapes created by Adebisi showing all that went on while Querns was in charge of OZ; smong other things!
***Anyone know of other great prisons shows?***
Over 30 years ago, I used to watch an Australian night time soap called "Prisoners: Cell Block H!" It was set in a female prison with corresponding drama from within and without! Watched every weeknight after work around '80; after 10 pm! Prisoner Bea was the "Queen Bee" and ran the place behind the scenes; Warden could only do so much! They practically worked together! Bea was imprisoned for killing the guy who got her daughter hooked on drugs, so she's a mall with a heart! She stopped the drug traffiking inside!
***Yeah, "Prisoner: Cell Block H" as Jamie mentioned, and also its new prequel/remake "Wentworth" (or "Wentworth Prison" outside of, er, Oz).***
***OZ vs Reality
ReplyDelete1. It's easy to connect each gang in Oz to real life mob organization, but I don't know much about this Aryan group, are they big outside of Oz? what crimes do they commit mostly?
The Aryan Brotherhood is a real life gang that's prevalent in the prison system. That being said, I'm confused about the premise of your question. Are you asking about the Aryan Brotherhood on the show or in real life? On the show they indicated that the gang had ties to other prisons (like with Keller worried about the Aryan Brotherhood in the Massachusetts prison he was transferred to or Shillinger running the Brotherhood in the previous prison he was in) and the flashbacks of Mark Mack and James Robson showed that they were active Skinheads before coming to Oz. If you want any info about the Aryan Brotherhood in real life, just do some research on the internet.
2. Is there any statistical fact showing that OZ, the show itself incited more crime after airing? The violence depicted is quite extreme; the language, ethnic hatred and all. Young people must be prone to influence or any other effect on reality from the show b/c of revealing the prison management, efforts (good and bad) of the priests, doctors, COs.
None. Oz was critically acclaimed, but comparatively unwatched by many on release in '97. The first season was not released until '02 on DVD and I'm not sure that many young children watched the show or were interested in watching it b/c of the promos that were released for the show during the 1st season. If anything, it displayed the horrors of prison and served as a deterrent against committing crime.
3. Is it true that it's common and easy for inmates to order hits outside the prison, like Schilinger ordered the kidnapping of Beecher's children, O'Reilly death of Dr.Nathan's husband, etc.? From what I can recollect, there is no such thing in Law & Order (an encyclopedia of crime) or other crime shows I've watched.
It largely depends on the inmate and who they know. In Schillinger's case he had his son commit the kidnapping and murder. In O'Reilly's case, he had his mentally ill brother commit the crime. On the other hand, in prison people meet criminals who do have the connections to commit the crime. For example, Wrangler actually hired honest to goodness criminals to kill his wife and her lover on the outside and Beecher paid Pancamo to kill Schillinger's son. So in short, it's based on who they know and whether that person has the ability to carry out the crime.
4. Lastly, what's prison like in reality, esp. high security prisons for felons; any good shows to watch?
If you're looking for what prison is like in reality, I would suggest that you watch the reality tv show "Lock Up" which interviews the inmates and staff in several prisons. Also season 1 of "Prison Break" is entertaining. If you are looking for movies set in prison, there's "American Me" which follows the Mexican Mafia in East Los Angeles.***
MSNBC's "Lock Up" which starts 10 pm, EST friday and runs for a few hours is good; hour long episodes relating the "goings on" at different prisons around the country and world really! They look at it through the perspective of the warden sometimes, the guards, and of course the inmates and their families! Depending on the prison, they can focus on the gang activity or lack thereof one moment, then move on to relationships and sexual escapades behind the scenes!
***You say Robson wasn't raped b/c he wasn't and people insult you and basically think you're a rapist. My mentality on real world rape and FICTIONAL PRISON RAPE IN A DRAMA SERIES are 2 very different things I assure you.
ReplyDelete---
I do see your points, but I don't agree with what you're saying. You insist that Robson wasn't raped b/c of the legal language involved. Depending on the state, what happened to Robson was either rape or sexual assault. So in legal terms you might be right, and it wasn't rape, but sexual assault.
However in common language, I say rape is rape, and "sexual assault" is just bickering, a way of not having to admit that rape is much more than just penetration w/o consent. This is something our society seems to be obsessed with; penetration. Also in some cases if a penis isn't used to penetrate, then it's sexual assault, not rape.
"Consent must be voluntary and not obtained by coercion or threats." In Robson's case, the consent was only due to him feeling threatened. He feared for his safety and for his life. Did Cutler think he was raping Robson? We don't know, but it doesn't matter either. What matters is how the victim viewed the situation.
Also Robsons case is the same as Winthrop's, which you say was rape. Let me explain my reasoning; when Guenzel and Winthrop meet at the gym, the conversation goes like this:
#02W562 Franklin Winthrop: Hey there handsome.
#02W561 Adam Guenzel: Fuck you.
#02W562 Franklin Winthrop: Hey, what's w/ the attitude, man? I'm in here b/c of you remember? I didn't wanna rape that girl!
#02W561 Adam Guenzel: Look at yourself. Look at what you've turned into!
#02W562 Franklin Winthrop: I had to, to survive, you know?
#02W561 Adam Guenzel: You don't see me all dolled-up.
#02W562 Franklin Winthrop: That's 'cause you've got Beecher, and from what I understand, you're paying the same price for protection that I am.
Your reasoning for why Robson wasn't raped is that he chose to seek protection from Cutler and "willingly" payed the price for it. Well, then Winthrop wasn't raped either; situation is the same. It's so clear in the meeting scene (I had no choice) and I think Robson had every right to be there. Was he a rapist asshole himself? Sure, but there's no denying that he was raped. Did he cause the situation where he felt he had no other choice? Yes. Does it diminish the fact that he was violated; that he was raped? No. No one deserves to be raped. Like Winthrop, he did what he felt needed to be done to survive. Rape is a horrible thing, but usually the instinct to stay alive is stronger. Why else would so many victims not scream for help or struggle when they fear doing so might cost them their lives?
I think you despise Robson as a character so much that you want to think he deserved what he got, but b/c you condemn rape, you don't want to admit he was raped, b/c then your statement would be, that rape on occasion is justified. I don't think you think that way, but that's probably why some other ppl here haven't understood your point.
I sympathise with most of the characters. Probably the only ones I don't really have sympathy for are Devlin and Timothy Kirk. Still, however horrible, whatever they may have done, imo no one deserves to be raped.***
***It's easy to connect each gang in Oz to real life mob organization, but I don't know much about this Aryan group, are they big outside of Oz? what crimes do they commit mostly?
ReplyDelete---
1. The Aryan Brotherhood, or AB, is a very real prison gang. They're probably the primary white prison gang in the US and are very violent. Prison officials estimate that perhaps 1/5 of all murders in US prisons are attributable to AB members. The originally organized in the 1960s, reportedly in San Quention prison in California, and were motivated in part to help provide protection for white inmates against non-white prison gangs. Their murders used to be mostly racially motivated, but now they're involved in more general criminal activity inside prison such as drug dealing and contraband smuggling and their violence is more about protecting and expanding their business than settling racial scores. Although they maintain their white supremacist and racist ethos, they're not averse to doing business with non-white inmates and gangs. The recent massive hunger strike in California prisons was organized by Todd Ashker, an AB leader, along with leaders of non-white prison gangs The Black Guerilla Family, Mexican Mafia, & Nuestra Familia.
2. There's no evidence that media depictions of violence cause violence in general. Prison inmates also don't usually have access to pay cable and so wouldn't be able to watch Oz. They also have lots of reasons to be violent and don't need a fake tv show to inspire them.
3. TV shows are not accurate depictions of crime. Oz showed it as much much easier to kill someone than it is in real life. But there have been people who have apparently been killed b/c of actions in prison. Last year, for example, a white supremacist gang member killed the head of CO's DOC. Some believe that the hit may have been ordered by an incarcerated gang leader (generally murders have to be sanctioned by the higher ups).
4. Tom Fontana, the creator of Oz, has said numerous times that he routinely sacrificed accuracy for dramatic effect. He's indicated that the high security prisons like depicted in Oz are actually much safer than the show implies. Chuck Zito, who played Chucky Pancamo, was one of the few Oz cast members to actually do time and he said that the show was a very exaggerated version of reality. There are murders, rapes, and drug abuse going on, but not to the extent shown.
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Who is the most disgusting character in the entire series? - Hey, there were so many worthy candidates. For me it was Schindler, for killing Tobias' son and for ruining the lives of both his sons. I have to admit I was shocked that with so many despicable murderers to choose from, child killers and on and on, that someone (not you) would single out a guy just b/c he was indescriminate in the color of the penis he would suck.
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Alvarez, he smeared his own *beep* on his face.***
Alvarez had to be mentally "done" in so many ways! He was catching it from all sides; ex-hood friends, guards, warden, and of course the Brotherhood!
***Three Deaths You'd Take Back - Here are 3 that I'm on the fence about.
ReplyDelete1. Jefferson Keane, while he was set-up, death was like being set free and he probably deserved the Death Penalty for his original crime.
2. Cyril, while he wasn't quite his original self, he was just as ruthless as Ryan, possibly more so. But the voice he gives his puppet on Death Row is creepy and hints that maybe (while suffering from a damaged brain) he still knows what's going on and isn't as incompetent as he appears. Sure, he's unstable, and was punished for trying to save his brother, but some of his craziness may have been overdid to get a pass.
3. And I hate to say it, but Adam Guenzel. True he was a brutal rapist, but his punishment was short-lived. He shoulda spent a little more time as a prag. However, I'm kinda on the fence about his death too. Ironically his death was on the fence.
Here are the people whose death's I wish didn't happen for various reasons.
1. Augustus Hill. One of the few people who still remained on the show after their death. His character was ok, but his narrations were sometimes corny and annoying. I wouldn't feel this way if his death meant no more narrations. At least we got different narrators by the end, but he died in season 5 yet appeared in all but 1 freaking episode.
2. Gamba Kufu aka Officer Clayton Hughes. His mind was so warped that he tried to kill the only person truly on his side, Leo Glynn. Ironically killed by the only inmate on his side in his so-called revolution.
3. Reverend Cloutier. Talk about needless suffering. Kirk was a jerk and the Rev was a good man.
I also want to generalize many victims that were casualties of prison wars and beef or just had bad luck. I'll try to name everyone I can think of, but I probably might miss a few people.
Rebadow's Grandson for starters. The Fathers who died in the fire at Church ordered by Timmy Kirk. The victims of the bus crash. The officers who died in the riot in season 1 who were sadly probably killed by the SORT Team. Beecher's Wife, Father and Son. And the undercover officers and agents who are murdered in Oz.
Sorry I named way more than 3 people. What you gonna do about it, shank me? lol.***
I haven't seen any of the show in 10 years, but IIRC everything about Glynn made me lose sympathy for him near the end! Taken up with that woman at the prison, ignored warnings of poisoning in solitary, getting rid of the tapes created by Adebisi showing all that went on while Querns was in charge of OZ; among other things!
***Arif is SUUUUUUCH a bitch - Every time something questionable comes up around Said, Arif looks at him with this butthurt bitch look on his face, particularly when Said might be given clemency and he bitches immediately that he should get it cause he has kids. His character annoyed me the entire time he was on screen as a whiny jealous bitch.***
Standing next to Said, the poor guy appeared nothing more than a "boy!" It was amazing how deminutive Arif would appear at times in his presence! He definitely wasn't ready early on to take the place of Said! He needed much growth; in more ways than one!
***Does anyone know or know anyone who timed just how long all Augustus' narratives take? I always skip them except a certain few which contain new scenes. I wonder just how long it would be if you put all the narratives back to back?***
But each narrative gives much needed prisoner info to justify fretting for them or hoping the worst happens during their incarceration!
***Adam Guenzel was a little bitch - Is it messed up to say I laughed when he got thrown to the wolves? He just annoyed me for some reason - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKcfINxi5_A -
ReplyDelete---
It's not messed up at all. He was an almost completely unsympathetic character from his introduction to his demise. And as much as I hate to admit it, I chuckled a bit myself when I heard Vern's "If you don't how are you going to learn?" line.***
No one cared obviously; including his family! All he had was his "Bro in crime" who turned on him and an old family friend he alienated and pushed away; Beecher! He was an entitled little prick that when he did "get it," a smattering of applause could be heard around the country!
***At the end of season 2 Augustus Hill climbs into the coffin, but it's not mentioned again in season 3. How did he get caught? - I never got that either. I guess it was just a cliff hanger to bring you back for more.***
There are plenty of open questions; not ever explain, but if it's done, it goes by so quickly in a statement, it can be missed quite easily! I know I heard he had been caught, but I can't remember how! How crazy can someone be who's paralyzed and tries to make his getaway in a coffin to heaven knows where! It could have been sent directly for cremation for all he knew! Idiot; most of the escapees were a little bent including Busmalis and Alvarez!
***I always think of Russell Westbrook, the basketball player when I see Wangler. I forgot how hilarious/good this show was. I got my girlfriend into it and she was randomly watching the episode where Adabisi has Wangler tied to the bed and he's naked; ass in the air. I was like "wtf" and burst out laughing.***
Wangler was kinda hot tied up like that! Westbrook overall has the same face and body structure, but he does nothing for me; not quite good looking enough! Maybe it's the sneering on the court! lol!
***I may have missed something, but I thought that Tobias had 2 kids. His son was murdered and he had a daughter. Now in the final season, all of a sudden he has another son. What's up with that?***
I asked the same thing last year, but it appears his wife was pregnant around the time Tobias was incarcerated! It was discussed, but not really to anyone's satisfaction! Plenty of things like that happened and it was just mentioned or touched on very briefly! Too many different writers and directors over those 6 seasons I guess! Continuity wasn't a major priority with this show!
***Beecher has 3 children: Gary, Holly, & Harry. Harry Beecher's the youngest son to Tobias. If you are confused about where he came from, it might be b/c he was not mentioned by anyone during the first 5 seasons of the show and never appeared onscreen.
From what was said about him onscreen, all we know about the character was that after Beecher's wife Genevieve died, there was a weird custody arrangement btwn Beecher's parents and in-laws where Harry went to live w/ her parents in San Diego, while Holly and Gary lived w/ Tobias'. He is first mentioned when Beecher is residing in Unit J by Harrison Beecher (Harry's grandfather & Tobias' father.) Harrison was supposed to bring Harry to visit Tobias in Oz, but he ended up being too scared to go. Then, after his parole, Beecher spends his time spare time w/ Harry.***
***I think out of all of the phases of Beecher my favorite was when he was "crazy." - Is that the badass, don't take crap from anyone Beecher that clubs the *beep* out of Vern and craps on his face?***
ReplyDeleteThat and when he actually killed one of the guards with his "sharpened" finger nails! To this day I'm not sure that was ever looked into; maybe another plot hole! Shocking huh?
***So I'm new to this show about to finish Season 4 and one person who I can't believe is Clayton Hughes. He was so completely self destructive and seemingly for nothing. It is one thing to want to understand his father's death verses everything he did to wind up in jail and becoming a complete jackass. I just find his story to be the most unbelieveable. Can anyone explain what is going on through his head cause I can't.***
It might have been partly due to how he was treated with kid gloves because of his father's death! It persisted into his adulthood, then he came under the influences of outside stimuli that made him radical! Trying to kill Glynn just made even less sense! Luckily he was prevented by another prisoner of his last heinous acts while in solitary!
***He was probably the most annoying character of the entire series for me. He gets even worse in season 5, if I'm remembering the seasons correctly.
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I know this series ended years ago, and I finished watching it on DVD some time ago and there's one question I wanted to ask, but just didn't think to post here - why on Earth would Jeremiah Cloutier be in Oz? He embezzled money - a totally nonviolent crime! Embezzlers don't get sent to maximum security prisons and serve sentences along w/ violent criminals - do they? I mean, Bernie Madoff, for example, is in a medium security prison simply b/c of the length of his sentence, and he seems to be a far worse embezzler than Cloutier ever could have been. Besides, Cloutier's sentence was only 9 years, versus 150 years for Madoff. Anyone have an explanation? Or do we just accept that this was TV show and leave it at that?***
They always say the punishment should fit the crime, but I'm of a mind with Dante's Inferno; punishment should fit the person's position in life as well! If you're a king or religious leader, you have a responsibility to be a better person; hence the more harsh treatment!
***Does Robson ever get revenge on the dentist?***
I never heard that he did or not! It's doubtful since he was on the outs with the "Brotherhood!" He didn't have the reach that Vern had and it was probably dropped!
***Which character do you dislike the most? I really can't stand Alvarez. He's so dumb, whiny and self-absorbed. He has the mentality of a teenaged momma's boy.***
Alvarez wound up being more sympathetic than most hardened criminals since he was catching it from all sides; the penal system, guards, his old crew, and of course the Brotherhood! How he survived was about as amazing as Beecher's! Sister Pete got on my nerves the most thinking she could change the mind set of these animals in prison! She even let Keller get to her emotionally by his malicious flirting!
***The Aryans from "Breaking Bad" seemed a lot more realistic - The Aryans on this show seemed somewhat cartoonish and less frightening whereas the ones from "Breaking Bad" gave me the fuckin' creeps b/c they looked so real; as if they could be members of the Aryan Brotherhood in real life.***
ReplyDeleteWell duh; there is a time difference and the production values have probably "up'd" big time! Never watched "BB", but "OZ" was scary enough for me! There's no such thing as doing your time and just getting out; drama attaches to everyone and your loved ones outside aren't safe as evidenced by Beecher losing a child and his father!
***If OZ were being filmed today, I shudder to think how creepy some of the prisoners would be portrayed. Even The Shield had some criminals that were more badass than on OZ. - There's not much that's 'realistic' about "Breaking Bad." Schillinger was a way better Aryan leader than Jack.
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Why does Adebisi attack Said? = He was testing Said's loyalty to him. He knew that Said had great influence in Oz and he wanted him to join him in running things so he gave him those incriminating video tapes.***
Well how bright could that have been? Said was a spiritual leader and thinking he would succumb to the underbelly of Adebesi efforts wasn't in the cards! He should have tested Said in some other way!
***I hated the ending with all my heart. I like drama, but not like this. There wasn't a good ending for ANYONE. After watching Beecher's unbelievable tries to redeem and find himself so he could be there for his family and kids, (whatever it was left of them at least) it's so freaking hard to see that instead of getting a happy ending, probably the only guy in there who truly deserved it. ...What was the point of the whole series? That despite how hard you try, life always finds a way to screw you over? I finished the show 10 minutes ago, although I loved a lot of things about it, if I knew how pessimistic the show would've been, I'd never of watched it. I kept rooting for one of the guys to have even a slightly good ending, nothing ever came. Everyone was left alone without family, or dead. So very nice. Thanks a lot.***
Lame, but it was an ending regardless! Maybe one of these days, they'll recruit Meloni and all the rest to create a "wrap up" movie! Chris died, but he's crucial to the story and he can appear in flashbacks! Here's hoping!
***Vernon Schillinger = Most Evil Villain in T.V. History - If i made a list of terrible villains in tv of the shows I've seen, Schillinger would definently be #1. J.K. Simmons did a good job portraying schillinger. Any opinions?***
ReplyDeleteWell going back to my childhood, it had to be the "one-armed man" in "The Fugitive!" That final episode was the equivalent of "who shot JR;" only it was in the 60's! In real life it had to be either Richard Speck or Manson and his unholy family! Some childhood huh?
***Adam Guenzel was a little bitch - Yes, I didn't like Guenzel. he was an entitled, foolish asshole. I'm straight, not a homophobe, but I didnt like the way he turned on Beecher, calling him a fag and taunting him. Not to be fucked up, but I liked that Vern and his gang rammed his ass up.***
I just couldn't believe Guenzel walked into "Gen Pop" as if he owned it all and mouthed off how regards were sent to Vern! Schillinger smacked him down good which had to be a huge shock! It's been many years so I can't remember why he was sent there? I know Beecher had taken away his protection, but he must have really ticked off McManus too! He had to know what would happen to someone that "young and tender!" lol!
***Vern had made an offer to Beecher to see Keller if he gives up Guenzel to him. Beecher told him no, but after Guenzel found out about Beecher's homosexuality, Guenzel turned against him and taunted him. Beecher then changed his mind of Vern's offer. Beecher went to McManus and told him about Guenzel, that they werent getting along and that Guenzel is irredeemable. This convinced McManus to have Guenzel transferred over to Unit B, where Vern was waiting for him.***
It all flooded back on me when I thought about Beecher making deal with Vern! I remember Beecher going to McManus saying they weren't getting along! It still was a little cold to throw him to the wolves by McManus! He had to know what would happen to Adam!
***Like that Italian enforcer said, who cares, the guy treated Beecher like shit when he stood side by side w/ him. When he boasted about raping the girl, enough was enough; time for him to get ass raped.
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Would you have ended OZ similar to how it ended? Would the same people die or survive? Would you have used ended in an ambiguous way or more of complete ending?***
They tried to wrap it up fast; out of time and money no doubt! All the evil fucks were killed off for the most part including Beecher's tormenters; The Aryan Brotherhood and Chris Keller! I was satisfied enough, but would love for them to have a movie to tie up loose ends like another favorite of mines; "Homicide: Life On The Streets!"
***I have to disagree about Coersion being used by Cutler concerning Robson as his sex slave. Robson agreed to Cutler's wish w/o setting boundaries, like prostitutes do w/ their customers (And yes, prostitutes can get raped. This happens when a customer crosses their boundaries and doesn't stop when she (or he) says no. ...
ReplyDeleteDid he intimitade Robson to have sex w/ him; to control him? Cutler didn't intimidate him at all! So Robson was not forced into it by Cutler. Robson asked other inmates for protection, but nobody wanted to deal w/ him. Cutler was the only one willing, under one condition, for Robson to be his sex slave. Talking to Sister Pete he asked if it was ok to do "anything" as long as it was necessary to survive. After this, Robson accepts Cutler's offer. In return, Cutler keeps up his end of the deal and defends Robson from Pancamo.
So now we know the definition of coersion, we can clearly state that Robson wasn't even coerced into being Cutler's sex slave. Cutler didn't even try to convince him into saying yes! Robson himself came back (after the talk w/ sister Pete) to Cutler and agreed upon the deal.***
You got it! If Cutler was working hand in hand w/ Vern and the Brotherhood, he might have a case, but that wasn't what was happening! Robson totally submitted w/o any threat from Cutler! Robson put himself in this position! He was in OZ w/ Beecher as his sex slave and fucked up, got put in GP, and is responsible in every way the situation he ended up! Thanks!
***Chris And Sister Peter Marie - In this clip:
- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0HLU3JBpeRU -
Chris asks Sister Peter Marie why God only "picks" certain people. Sister Pete says: "Maybe he will. There's still time."
Chris smirks and replies that he doesn't think so, also removing his necklace in the process. Can anyone tell me what that necklace is? It's not a cross.
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A St Dismas medal. I had heard that he was the patron saint of prisoners, but in fact, when I checked just now, he's the patron saint of those condemned to death.***
***Just finished watching the show over the course of 2 weeks. My thoughts...
ReplyDeleteI got annoyed by the time the forth season came around and everytime McManus is on screen he's either walking out a door or out of the shot as he's yelling or making some sorta point. It's like he's in a constant state of pms. I didn't like the actor at all, his face and whining started to annoy me halfway through the series.
Ryan O'Reily, loved the character, but not the actor. He's a terrible actor, his face has no expression when its required for an emotional scene. It stays the same throughout. He reminded me so much of Aaron Paul from 'Breaking Bad.'
Adebisi, loved this character too. His face was always intriguing. Well done by the actor. This character is one for the TV Ages. The guy playing Adebisi, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje is one of my new favorite actors. I've seen him in some other stuff and he's always stood out, but his part in Oz just cements him into my memory for life much like all 'The Wire' Actors.
Keller, if we were to do a tournament and see which character survives out of say 24. Keller is my pick. This character and is so layered and well played. The depth of him and all his characteristics were always interesting to watch. I think I had a pretty good understanding of what all the other inmates were about, but Keller is the only one I just couldn't figure out. Fascinatingly written and acted character.
Did anyone else find Augustus Hill's introductions esp. in the first 3-4 seasons really annoying? How his talking scenes would cut in and he would blabber on about stuff that ultimately wasn't interesting, necessary or appealing.
Officer Claire Howell, no one mentions her, but she did a fine job with her character. I hated that bitch so much!
Burr Redding, terrible character and actor. He annoyed me by the end. Everything about him was generic. Maybe except for his snarl.
I liked the idea of a Kareem Said, but i didnt think the actor playing him did a great job. An adequate job, but I'm sure it could have been played better by someone else.
After having seen 'The Wire' many years ago and having it ranked as my favorite tv show ever. I smiled every time a 'Wire' actor was on the show. It brought me great delight seeing what these actors were like 3-8 yrs before they starred on the 'Wire.' W/ that being said, I was annoyed to see Bodie and Wrangler be the same character. There wasn't much of a difference in the actors style. He was the same exact person in both shows. This disappointed me, greatly. But I loved Lance Reddicks performance as a Jamaican drug addict, was very impressive and different from his character on 'The Wire.'
Also, was very surprised by the amount of penis shown in this series. Didn't know HBO was allowed to show that much esp. in '97. I'm not sure if this show is better than "The Sopranos," but it definitely had more likable characters and a more intertwined and tighter storyline. Although much of the early soliloquies by Augustus are useless and annoying. But I would definitely put it down as one of the most important series in TV history along w/ "Breaking Bad, The Wire, Sopranos, Mad Men." These are tv shows you NEED to watch in order to understand and appreciate how TV grew and built upon what it is today from the late 1990's thru the 2000's. And after reading other users posts and thinking about it, the show did begin to unravel in the 6th season. A lot of the things that happened were out of character, unnecessary and forced. A lot of the later plotlines came out of nowhere when they should have expanded on the characters they had already introduced. Plus the ending was pretty lame I must admit, ANTHRAX, RUN! (At least it'll always serve as a reminder for those 2001 days when in real life we were consumed by the terrorist threat of anthrax in the mail) - Rating (8/10)***
***How did Ryan O'Reilly not get raped? A weasley little white guy like that w/ no connections to any organization not getting raped was the most unrealistic part of this show.***
ReplyDeleteHe was just a master manipulator and took advantage of the other inmates lack of intelligence; bartering, promising things, doing favors for them! He managed to avoid getting plucked; unlike Cyril who didn't have a clue! BTW, I think Riley was associated with an Irish gang; he ran a part of it with Cyril his enforcer! I can barely remember the particulars, but Riley wasn't totally unaffiliated!
***You might say it was the luck of the Irish.
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Is it just me or is it a scene in every episode where Mcmanus either is asked or asks someone if they want to have dinner?***
It's a lot! He has no life outside of OZ and is always on the prowl; even bedding that disgusting guard, Claire Howell! His punishment for that was a lawsuit when he dropped her! She was a real piece of work; and so was he really!
***Do guys who engage in prison rape have sex w/ prags, but are on the receiving end of oral sex or are giving anal sex get called out for having sex w/ other men? There are a few different views one can look at this. lets take Schillinger. He makes guys his prags. He's not giving oral, but he's still engaging in sexual activity w/ other men. In real prison, wouldn't some oonsider him to be gay or at least not want to have anything to do w/ him?***
Looks like that old hypocritical stereotype of "one's the man" while the other is gay and servicing! Some agree with that sort of scenario, but what's their excuse if they violate some kid in "overnight" lockup? That's one reason to segregate kids from hardened criminals because they must love it and are totally full of shit in so many ways!
***Phases of Tobias Beecher. - What an exercise in acting. Every other episode there was a different Beecher. I could picture him coming into work and saying, "what am I going to go through this time?" I think I felt worse for the actor even knowing this all wasn't really happening to him, but for the mere exhaustion of his character going through all the different situations and having perform them excellently.***
Technically, you'd have to say Beecher was the star! That was why he went through so much; relationship with Chris, battles w/ Schillinger, family, and introducing new inmates into OZ!
***I always thought that. To me the Season 4 finale in which he gets released but then he wakes up really proved it to me.***
***Ozwald Prison Location - They gave clues as to what state the prison was located in. Firstly, Bob Rebadow indicated that he was saved from execution b/c of the Northeast Blackout of 1965 which affected the states of Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, New York, and New Jersey. Out of those states we can eliminate Massachusetts right off the bat b/c Keller was sent to a prison in Massachusetts for the murder of Hank Schillinger in Season 4b. Additionally they referred to Keller being sent "up to Massachusetts." B/c of that language we can eliminate Vermont & New Hampshire b/c one does not normally say they are going "up" to somewhere if they are traveling south.
ReplyDeleteThat leaves Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey. Any of these states could have been the state in which Oz is located. There are two tidbits worth of note: firstly in the last episode of the series they show an exterior shot of Oz and the flag flying in front is the flag of the state of New York. Despite the fact that this would serve as proof that Oz is in New York State, Tim McManus' ex-wife Eleanor O'Connor said a few things that in fact cast some doubt on this. Secondly, all the cars whose plates I could identify had New Jersey plates. So take those for what they are worth.
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...the girl who Beecher accidently killed while driving, Cathy Rockwell; they always refered to her as this little girl and made it sound tragic. Now death is tragic regardless of who it is, young or old, big or small. The point I'm trying to make is to cast an overweight actress w/ freckles who to me looked like a teenager; she was far from little. To me it was poor casting would have been more dramatic if she was a young Bailee Madison type.***
After all this time, I'm still wondering why Beecher was in such a state! He had a wife, 2 kids, worked at his father's law firm; why in the world was he trolling around smashed out of his mind anyway? I'm sure others with perfect lives can wind up dependent; look at the Kennedys and Bushs, but I still wonder about Beecher! Did he really have regrets that explained that day? I missed a lot of the early seasons even with the disc I ordered! All I know is he has a lot of resentment at the judge who overstepped her bounds and took the offense more seriously than most! She came to OZ looking for forgiveness for some reason; she couldn't sleep! Like him, I would have told her to get lost as well! "Go to your spiritual leader for absolution!"
***What did you think of the 6 season build up to how the story to Vern and Beecher ended? I thought it was anti-climactic, but Vern deserved worse.***
Amazing how some criminals treat killers or rapists of kids more harshly behind bars, but what excuse could justify Schillinger having his son kidnap both and kill one of Beecher's kids? He definitely deserved a lot more punishment!
***Was it Beecher's intent to let Schillingers son die in prison or did he really try to save him in the end?***
It's been too many years since I've seen OZ, but Beecher set both of Schillinger's sons up; one in OZ and the other outside by bartering the death of his son's killer!
***Ya, I meant the first one before his kids were kidnapped, the son that bunked w/ him, b/c Vern killed his own son, but it seemed like Beecher tried to save him b/c he felt sorry for him.***
Beecher always has 2nd thoughts; even going to Pancamo trying to stop the hit on the son outside of OZ! It was already a done deal; too late! Beecher doesn't think things through, is rash, but after a time always has regrets!
***I've just started watching. I was a huge SVU fan, so I wanted to see some actors in different roles. I'm 10 shows in, pretty spoiled b/c I did some reading on a wiki. This isn't a happy drama. It is pretty bleak. I don't know that there are any characters I can relate to or have a lot of sympathy for. I started out feeling sympathetic for Beecher, but he let alcohol ruin his life. Why drink and drive? Why not call a cab or a friend or a wife to come get you? B/c of arrogance; had it all and blew it. Don't expect this to have happy endings for all the characters.***
ReplyDeleteHoney, it's set in prison, not a church! lol! These are miserable people who've done wrong! There are no innocent victims in the place! These are the types who go to jail or prison every single day and I expected it to be "dark!" It has its softer scenes; the relationship of Beecher to Keller and a woman later on! You expect this type of behavior with "everyday people," but the rich and affluent do the same thing all the time! A football player had signed a huge $38 M contract several years ago, but was carrying a gun out to a club for protection! He shot himself in the leg and decided to fight the law dealing with concealed weapons! Lost it all and went to jail, but could have afforded personal security! People in general are just stupid and they make mistakes!
***The profanity doesn't bother me. The sadism and inhumanity can grate after a while. I was stunned Diane didn't get raped during the riot. While I am pretty spoiled, I'm waiting for something bad to happen to the doctor or the nun. I don't feel any sympathy for the characters. I don't have anyone that I relate to. Should I keep watching? I was eager to see who was killed in the riot. I was pretty sure Ross would die since it was the only way for Diane to be free from losing her job.
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Worst storyline? The aging drug storyline is underrated. I think the aging drug story brought up a good discussion on rehabilitation and whether it works, so I'm glad they had that episode, but I'm also glad they quickly ditched it though and had the characters age back, b/c it would have been weird to see some of the characters become grampas. lol***
I instantly thought about the "aging" drug and stopped watching for a while! When I came back, Cyril was back to normal! I still couldn't believe the doctor was allowed to treat him since there was a huge conflict of interest w/ Cyril being the murderer of her husband! So that's 2 issues w/ one plot line! lol! To deal w/ so many people being incarcerated, I wouldn't doubt they're trying to come up w/ an alternate method to punish criminals like aging them or like a "Twilight Zone" episode, implant in their minds a lengthy stay in prison! It's too big a business so we'll continue to waste the time and money the way it is right now; sorta like doubling defense spending unnecessarily! We're such idiots!
***Who would you choose to room with? - This one might be dangerous, but how about Cyril O'Rielly. Lets say you treat him well, but you also don't step on his brother's toes. You might have 2 guys on your side or it might get you killed.***
ReplyDeleteYou never knew when Cyril might flip out! Most of the time it was due to his brother's actions, but when he withdrew into his sock puppet, I wouldn't be able to sleep! lol!
***Season 5 - dogs being trained by inmates - I won't spoil it, but there's a nice ending w/ one of the dogs.***
IIRC one of the inmates trains a dog to attack one of the guards who was abusing him! I haven't seen it in over 10 years, but I can picture the inmate; not a regular!
***The inmate was not a regular, but a frequent inmate during the last season (and a key one for that matter) - I watched this show during it's original run 17 or so years ago? I was thinking about watching it again. Some shows hold up and some don't over time. How does this one fair?***
It easily holds up over time! If I were to see some scenes today, it would still be shocking; the violence, rapes, assaults, and relations created and destroyed over time!
***I think the only season where the show dates itself is a lone reference to processing speed for computers which really is funny by today's standards. - Who did you feel the most sorry for? Eugene Dobbins, Beecher and Cyril O'Reilly. Dubbins b/c he never did anything to the other inmates, and Beecher b/c of his kids abduction. Cyril, b/c he's so sweet :-) ***
Unfortunately they're still criminals or they wouldn't be in OZ! Feeling sorry is probably a little strong, but compassion in comparison to the others after the fact maybe I'll give you! Deaths were attributed to them remember!
***I find, half asking, "whe are the COs?" a lot. Beecher does something awful in a later episode and ends up in the hole. His awful thing takes less than two minutes. Yet, Vern is able to sodomize and brand him, which had to take close to what, 30 minutes? Why was that not captured on camera? Where were the patrols of COs to catch that.
Em City is supposed to have 40 inmates. It makes no sense that it would have inmates not in single cells. The cell that Scott Ross and others are in has at least 4 bunks, 8 people. So 16 cells w/ 2 people and 1 w/ 8? That cell block is pretty big for only having 40 inmates. Also, whenever they are in the cafeteria, there is more than 40.
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On the Cafeteria, they eat meals w/ the gen-pop. Whenever Vern is in Gen-pop, you will see him eating w/ the rest of the Aryans who are currently in Em City. They don't have a separate cafeteria for Em City from the rest of the prison.
However, they do mess up their count on inmates...esp. considering the 2nd ep of S2 states that there's 4 inmates per "Group," w/ 10 groups. That changes relatively quickly w/ new people coming in, a few dying...a few going to Gen-pop. At one point the "Gangstas" have at least 5 people, the same w/ the Latinos.***
***Entertaining Show... the most unrealistic 'Prison' show ever. Haha - So it's very entertaining and the story lines are intriguing. I know Em City was supposed to be a new age type of cell block that made life a lil easier for the hardened criminals, thinking it may rehabilitate them better, but c'mon, these are things that should never happen in a real prison:
ReplyDelete- Cells or PODs w/ breakable glass wall; I could maybe see plexi glass like used in hockey arenas
- Convicted Murders, Rapists, and Drug Dealers to be given the leeway to walk around a prison unsupervised
- Inmates allowed to wear what ever they want while locked up
- There seems to be a lack of supervision once inmates are locked up in their glass cages
- How a kitchen can be run by inmates is absurd w/ little to no supervision from the guards
Now I know if this stuff was taken into consideration, the show would have been a lil more boring, but Em City seems to me more a violent sleep away camp for crazy bastards. haha.
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At first I didn't think this was weird, but as the incidents that happened in pods increased, I wondered the same:
- How a kitchen can be run by inmates is absurd w/ little to no supervision from the guards - This is also true.
Overall the only things I agree on is that the lack of supervision was crazy.***
Maybe, but still stands the test of time!
***If Cyril killed Gloria's husband, would they really put him in the same prison where she works?***
Probably not in real life, but she showed herself to be a profession and really took care of him; esp. when aging drug was being used on him!
***I watched it for the first time like 2 years ago and it became my favorite show. So yeah, I think this one holds up great.
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I watched it during it's original run too. I am re-watching one episode nightly, and it absolutely still holds up. - Mcmanus and grabbing dinner...
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It was the late 90s, early 2000s. That's what people used to do before the invent of Facebook, Myspace and all that. But why McManus liked "grabbing dinner" esp. was perhaps b/c he felt lonely spending most of his time with criminals.
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To me it seemed more like a running joke. There's a new female in Oz, let's have McManus ask her out to dinner. They never showed him asking out the girl from the call center, but then I saw the deleted scenes and there it was. That got a chuckle out of me b/c it was something I was expecting the whole time she was there.***
***As much as I hated Guenzel, I felt traumatized by seeing him at the end of the musical episode, where he was naked and beat up (and having been raped) in the gym. I think we were supposed to hate his character and say "Good, I hope the Aryans rape him" and then feel bad when we saw the effects of that action.***
ReplyDeleteThe way I saw it, he talked and acted his way into that assault! Forget the rape, he decided to turn on his only friends b/c he disapproved of their actions inside! What a tool! It was hard to feel sorry for him, but I didn't wish it on him; though some believed he deserved it! He was being protected and obviously didn't realize where his bread was butter; so to speak!
***The characters that showcase weakness and fear are my favorites as they are very realistic and properly used devices. Adam Guenzel is my 4th most favorite character in the show b/c he was a great plot device that shows what happens when someone assumes they are untouchable or can get away w/o having any protection. These types of characters are excellent for morality and psychological complexity. Definitely one of my favorites. My favorite characters in the show are:
1. Ronald Barlog
2. Richie Hanlon
3. Nikolai Stanislofsky
4. Adam Guenzel
5. Johnny Post
6. Peter Schibetta
7. Bian Yixhue
8. Dino Ortolani
9. Franklin Winthrop
10. Huseni Mershah
11. Guillaume Tarrant
12. Stanley Bukowski
13. Wilson Loewen
I like them all for various reasons, but the primary ones being that they all have a beautiful death scene and each character is used properly as a great plot device before being executed. Best ones to me.
My least favorites are Ryan O'Reily and Chris Keller as they are conniving and cause a string of events that result in the execution of everyone I actually like. Like Supreme Allah said: "Oz minus Keller and O'Reily equals justice." However, this is a conundrum as I love all my favorites b/c of their awesome death scenes.
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Season 2 is my least favorite of Oz. ...I agree w/ the ratings b/c OZ has the best episode high up and the less plot driven episode below. The best episode is the one that has a strong connective plot point and has excellent plot device usage of main characters as well as supporting characters. Stand-alone episodes or ones that don't connect as much are simply not as good. Each season of Oz showed us something awesome minus season 2.
Season 1 - The Riot + Ryan O' Reily causing a string of murders [Dino Ortolani and Johnny Post device] + Jefferson Keane death penalty story + Kareem Said vs. Huseni Mershah plot + Adebisi and O'Reily vs. Nino Schibetta angle
Season 2 - The Aftermath [Scott Ross device] + Beecher getting set up + Adebisi emotions [Kipekemie Jara device] + Tunnel Collapse
Season 3 - Beecher strikes back [Metzger device] + The Gun in Em City + Stanislofsky strikes [Richie Hanlon device] + the boxing match-ups [Cyril device] + Schillinger's son and protection [Andrew device] + Antonio Nappa vs. Adebisi plot
Season 4 - The Gun Goes Off [Tarrant vs. Wangler; the Adebisi orchestration] + O'Reily and the cell phone [Stanislofsky device] + Keller and his secrets and the love triangle [Ronald Barlog device] + The false bomb threat [Padraig Connolly device] + Cloutier vs. Timmy Kirk + Clayton Hughes' insanity + Rebadow executing El Cid [Morales device] + Burr Redding vs. Morales [Bian Yixhue device]
Season 5 - Beecher vs. Schillinger [Adam Guenzel device] + Augustus protects Burr Redding + The Variety Show + Jia Kenmin vs. Ryan and Cyril + Robson and his gums
Season 6 - Peter Schibetta's attempt against Ryan + Hoyt w/ Cloutier vision and Timmy Kirk's taken down + The Wilson Loewen coverup and Leo Glynn death [Devlin device] + Cyril O'Reily's many near-deaths + Martinez and Morales vs. nurse and Alvarez ending + Said executed by doomsday scenario Lemuel Idzik + Beecher's re-lockup and Schillinger showdown
Of all the seasons, the weakest is the 2nd season and it's also the weakest finale; at least this is what I feel.***
***Favorite Character - I like Father Mukanda. He's the only heroic person throughout the whole show; charitable, dedicated, non-judgmental, down-to-earth, intelligent, and brave. He never has to raise his fist or his voice to accomplish things. I find it intriguing that he is an Asian priest too.***
ReplyDeleteHe has the same persona as a re-occurring character on "Law & Order: SVU" playing an FBI profiler and psychologist! Just one of many who crossed over or went back and forth when both programs were being produced at the same time!
***...That nonsense w/ O'Reilly is so stupid too. It's right up there w/ the aging pill angle. The only reason why so many people liked that male breast cancer stuff is because it involved Ryan and the majority of his fans only enjoyed him b/c they found him attractive. If he was played by an ugly actor, Ryan O'Reilly would have been one of the most hated people on the show, but Dean Winters at that time could be taking a dump on TV and his fans would have found it compelling.***
I guess I was the exception! I was never impressed by him; physically or otherwise! He's the type that was never satisfied until he destroyed everything around him; lives, reputations, whatever! He's more disturbed than any mental patient or character on the show!
***Ryan O'Reilly and Chris Keller are my least favorite characters in the entire show's run.
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I watched it during it's original run. I am re-watching 1 episode nightly, and it absolutely still holds up.***
It easily holds up over time! If I were to see some scenes today, it would still be shocking; the violence, rapes, assaults, and relations created and destroyed over time!
***It holds up just fine. It is kind of funny seeing a lot of the cast of Dexter in it. And I only say that b/c they look like kids compared to how they looked in Dexter. Maria Laguerta, Angel Batista, James Doakes, and Joey Quinn from Dexter are all in this show. It is funny to see a young looking Batista! But, yes, it does hold up.***
***I like the series very much! One thing I want to see is for Howell to have everyone pull her train and kill her. It would make the show even better.***
ReplyDeleteHowell was awful and a real piece of work! I figured she'd end up living in OZ as a "lifer resident" at least! No one deserved a horrible death more!
***Amen! She's RAPING these guys and then crying that it was the men. I'm also about 3 episodes from the ending. I'll be back then to really discuss so I don't catch spoilers.
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Just finished watching on a marathon. Really enjoyed it as a whole, but was left a little cheated with the finale... Felt rushed and un-authentic:
-Gutted; we didn't get to see Devlin arrested or being sent to OZ for murder... we only saw the confrontation btw him and McManus
-The Beecher and Keller ending just didn't sit right to me... Would have been nice to see them kiss and make-up, but it would have only lasted for about a week before something else were to happen... I think it was the Whole "Keller framing Beecher for his death" which threw me
-The Evacuation, Um... it just felt like they did that for effect, b/c it was the last episode of the series. (although I did like the idea of killing all the Aryan's w/ the parcel, was good dark Humor)
- O'Reilly's, nice, although sad ending
-Alvarez, Meh, you feel sympathy for the guy, but he SHK, he's never paroled... (Alonzo, the blonde night club owner who Acid attack the Drag queen, what was the whole point of him? The fact it was Vince from Will and Grace, helped it a bit).
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Just finished today! I think my fave character arc was Ryan O'Reilly's. ...The only time I was moved to tears in this series involved him and Cyril (first attempt). Great stuff.
2nd fave character arc was Alvarez's, and not just cause he's beautiful. Another guy who comes in as a punk, goes through a new Hell almost every episode, and still struggles to do the right thing and be a decent person. The type of person Em City was created for! And yet, so different from O'Reilly's outcome.
And then there's Said. Not enough can be said about watching him progress through the series.
I really grew to love watching some of these guys. Omar, Beecher, Sister Pete, Father Mukada, Morales, Murphy, Busmalis, even Keane way back. So many good characters - that's what made this show fantastic!***
***Regarding Poet...I've been rewatching OZ w/ my roommate, who pointed something out about Poet that I hadn't previously considered. She stated that in her opinion, McManus and Said bore some of the responsibility for the crime Poet committed, since he obviously wasn't ready for a release, and they pushed him into a parole he wasn't ready for to boost Emerald City's credibility. I had never really looked at it this way before, but her argument has merit. I'm not excusing what Poet did, and he should have been held accountable for killing his victim (although it did feel fairly self-defensey from the way it was depicted), but shouldn't McManus and Said have shared some of the blame? On an ethical level I mean?***
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting! He definitely needed supervision; that's for sure! It was still shocking to see him return just like statistic show in the way of recidivism! It doesn't seem to matter if they had a "dream" release as an author! What an idiot!
***It's funny that Said and McManus hated each other so much in the show... They're really 2 sides of the same coin. They were both raging publicity whores and their massive egos could almost have been viewed as a self-obsessive psychosis. I don't think either of them genuinely gave a shit about Poet. He was just another notch on their 'See how we're making the world a better place?' belt.
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Tarrant virtually had all the characteristics of inmates who are typically bullied in prison - Small in size, physically weak, shy, timid, possessed what many macho idiots consider a feminine characteristic w/ his long hair, was perhaps mentally ill, Caucasian, and was most likely a 1st-time offender. Him being a foreigner only made him more of an outsider to the rest of the gen-pop.
Through the years I have continued to find Tarrant very intriguing. The fact that he was French made him all the more fascinating. I have constantly wondered why Tarrant destroyed the statue. Was he making a political statement against public nudity? Or was he perhaps a victim of sexual molestation as a child and seeing the figure triggered some bad boyhood memories, so he broke the penis b/c it reminded him of his abuser?***
Well it wasn't like it was an accident that put him in OZ! Destruction of art is low on my totem pole! This stuff survives for hundreds of years, then "he's" offended in some way, probably just a frustrated artist himself, and "he" destroy it! I have little to no sympathy for his plight! Do the crime, do the time! Loser!
***Yeah, his flashback was definitely one of the ones where you think, "Damn, and he went to max security for THAT? What a system we have." Malcolm Coyle was another one. Sure, he was a terrible person, but his sentence was unjust. One of his convictions was assaulting a police officer when we know damn well he didn't do that. Hey, the cops had to justify shooting his friend w/o even giving warnings. They LIED and the lie made it past the jury.***
***Did I Miss An Episode - or did the whole "let's find out who killed Leo Glen" plot-line just die on the vine?***
ReplyDeleteA lot of deaths were unsolved; some not even looked into or overlooked altogether! The mayor was probably done in by a guard while he was in the infirmary; Beecher knocked off a crooked "screw" bullying him! Nothing came of it that I know of!
***...did Adbisi actually make Wangler his bitch? - I think Simon did rape him b/c in a scene Kenny says "Why don't you just kill me?"***
I remember it well! He was tied, face down on his bed and gagged! It didn't stop him from mouthing off at Adebisi anyway! This punk had no "self control!" He was destined to die young!
***Why do you think Agent Taylor was so obsessed with Keller's killings?***
I don't think people realize how predatory Keller was and was responsible for more deaths than he could count! He'd snap a guy's neck for the smallest slight or insult! Looked like Keller was more confused than anyone; knocking off tricks so they wouldn't talk maybe! He was a macho man and didn't want to appear weak in the least even though "inside OZ," it's ok to have an 'old lady!'
***...everytime McManus is on screen, he's either walking out a door or out of the shot as he's yelling or making some sorta point. - HAHAHA. No shit! Don't forget the file folder that he is ALWAYS swinging around while he is throwing a fit. Why are bleeding-heart liberals always so angry FFS?
Also, was very surprised by the amount of penis shown in this series. Didn't know HBO was allowed to show that much esp. in '97. - Maybe you are not from this country, but any TV network, except for the 5 broadcast channels ABC, NBC, ABC, FOX & PBS, can show anything they please.HBO, as well as FX, AMC or even the Disney Channel could show hardcore anal sex if they wanted too. Any decisions about what to show or what not to show are made internally. The gov't has no say-so in the matter.***
***After Morales decided to ruin any chance of Brass becoming a pro basketball player by getting Martinez to cut his tendons, do you think it was justified for Brass to take revenge? I know it basically screwed up his chances of moving on, but this made him bitter and hellbent on not only finding out who cut him, but committing murder. I just found Brass to be someone who would easily cross the line in any given situation and he wasn't far off from displaying the same character traits of Officer Metzger (nazi CO from S2 and 3).***
ReplyDeleteI know most won't see it this way, but I always blamed McManus! He's the one that made the game such a big deal! These are criminals he's wagering with who have nothing else going on! If they're promised an extra portion in the "mess," any of them is likely to do something horrendous to achieve the goal! He should know that already!
***I agree that McManus was in a way to blame b/c he told Morales that he was still going to play in the game, and yeah Brass was right in taking revenge. - McManus had a habit of not keeping his mouth shut.
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No violence is ever justified. When Brass cut Morales' tendon, it didn't make him feel better, it didn't make anything right. Look what happened to Brass at the end. He tried to kill Jackson Vahue purely out of jealousy. A prisoner gets out and gets back on his feet and back to doing what he loves (in the spotlight even). Meanwhile, he's still a prison guard who can't walk right for the rest of his life. He couldn't take it. Morales paid for what he did, but it didn't make Brass right in his head and heart. Well, like both Glynn and Murphy both said on separate occasions, it sucked what happened to Brass. A lot.
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Ryan O'Reily and Chris Keller are my least favorite characters in the entire show's run.***
Neither had a conscience! Everything was all about them and how they felt about something! They didn't love or care about anybody else even when they mouthed the words! They were "lifers" who had nothing but contempt for society, authority, and the planet in general! They spent most of their waking hours coming up w/ new ways to manipulate people! It's unfortunate both O'Reilly and Keller were such despicable human beings b/c it wasn't like they were dumb! Probably a bad upbringing which caused them to be so distrustful and have nothing but disdain for their fellow man! They're the type to find a way to destroy it even if they got all they wanted!
***How can a guy be considered "straight" if he's raped a lot of men? - In prison there's no women so they don't count it as gay b/c it's not like they're picking a man over a woman.***
ReplyDeleteSo called "all men" need to just get off their hatred! Why are twinks and other more vulnerable kids attacked in simple lockup? If the opportunities are there, dudes love it! If older bigots, religious zealots, and more current hypocrites would get over themselves, the world would be a more harmonious place! The POPE is "bending" believe it or not! I think what they fear will happen are arranged and pretend marriages would break down their family system! Having a boy on the side might become fashionable! lol!
***Remember Ryan also gets in good w/ everybody; i.e. when he gets moved to Em City. He gets in w/ the Italians, has connections to the homeboy's, and also Schillinger.***
W/o a doubt O'Reilly's the most manipulative person on the show! It's one thing to use real info to get ahead, he'd lie, cheat, and steal to work out his existence in OZ! It was crocodile tears when it came to his brother as well; using him in schemes at his worst! Throughout the seasons, it was like a family reunion; father as a visitor and then inmate, mother working to give inmates an outlet through creative endeavors, then of course Cyril taking out Gloria's husband under orders and going "inside!"
***Season 5 ruined O'Reily's character forever by having his mom work in the prison. It was just way too cheap. Everything before that was fine. I mean, I was good w/ him meeting his mom in season 4.2, but it should've ended there. They make their peace and she turns herself in. The end, life's just like that. It would have fit w/ what Oz is about. To have her get out and then get a job doing community service in Oz...it was just too hokey.
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This show is great! I'm glad I finally have a chance to watch it. My favorite character is Beecher. I like how he finally stood up for himself against J.K Simmons (Schillinger), who by the way I totally am not use to seeing him be an antagonist. Now Beecher is a mentally unstable badass. Hoping that it's going to be even better. I'm onto s2!***
It has it's ups and downs, but "OZ" has stood the test of time! It's still cutting edge after all these years! I don't have to see the current offerings Of "Breaking Bad, House Of Cards, and The Wire" to know "OZ" can "bring it" even after being cancelled 10+ years ago! WELCOME!
***Three Deaths You'd Take Back - Supreme Allah. I would've loved to have seen him start his own faction to rival the Muslims and The Homeboys.***
ReplyDeleteEven though Augustus Hill had a way of "mouthing off," Supreme Allah assaulting him in the shower and kicking him out of his wheelchair was too much! For recreation, did he smack around blind, little old ladies?
***Does Hill not charge at him? And besides Hill was a criminal himself.***
Charging? You're kidding right? Like I said, Augustus was "mouthing off" and SA kicked his chair over and stomped him a few times!
***The show was modeled after a Greek tragedy. This means you need a chorus (or narrator) that moves the story from one act to the next. It's actually brilliant and gave HBO the confidence and ability to start cranking out the other great shows that they have come out w/. "Oz" was the 1st show HBO made and IMO set quite a precedent.***
Even though there are tons of plot holes, some of the worst storylines, and unbelievable events, "OZ" is still one of the best cable produced dramas and continues to grandfather new projects! It's still "RAW" after 15+ years w/ a cast so memorable, you can't help but give them a "tip of the cap!"
***Are the whites really that evil?***
The "gen pop" ones in OZ are psychotically bigoted and racist; some guards are on the payroll as well!
***Reverend Jeremiah Cloutier - why the hell would he be in Oz? - ...The worst off I thought was the French guy being sent to OZ.***
If that was the one who decided to "act out" on a piece of art, he s/b put "under" OZ IMO! This stuff survives the ages, wars, fires, and thefts, then this idiot wants to "make a statement" by trying to damage it? It would have been better for him to "blow his brains out" a couple years earlier!
***I just remembered the Italian guy who was building the houses or something; that wasn't his fault. Also I'm surprised Vern ended up in jail, I mean he beat up a drug dealer selling drugs to his kids. You think the jury member's w/ family would be on his side.***
I used to watch another prison drama 30+ years ago at night called "Prisoner: Cell Block H" and their top boss momma, BEATRICE; Bea for short killed a drug dealer that sold drugs to her daughter who died!
***I would have liked Querns more if he wasn't a racist. Of course it's possible that he wasn't and was just doing what Adebisi wished in order to keep EM City a non-violent area. He had a very bad-ass voice and overall demeanor too. If he hadn't allowed Adebisi to break the rules, he could have been a great regular character.***
ReplyDeleteQuerns allowed "the brothers" to run rampant in Em City; selling drugs, whatever as long as there was no violence! No way would McManus have allowed Adebisi to put those sheets over his pod glass for privacy! The actor who plays Querns is always sorta "Afro-centric;" writer of poetry, rap, etc. all over "Law & Order: SVU!"
***I'm a new viewer and Schillinger is my fave character so far, mainly because I like JK Simmons of all the cast I liked him before I saw OZ - So you guys like guys who kidnap children and cuts them up into pieces?***
You see the pathology; if you defend yourself or fight back, that gives license for a ridiculous escalation where the families outside become targets! Nothing more sick than Vern if you really think about it since he was supposed to be the "smart Leader" of the Brotherhood inside! What good did it do him? He lost sons, Beecher lost his father and kid, and in the end Vern's entire group was knocked off by Keller!
***No, but I do appreciate the abilities of an actor who can portray such a despicable character. I did say he was bad, you know?
---
This show has to be the most overrated garbage in the history of tv. I mean what's the point of watching a bunch of sadistic killers rape and kill each other? ...Honestly, who the hell cares about scum like the people in this show, not to mention the fact that this prison would've been shut down quickly in real life considering the fact that a murder was committed every day basically. But that would take away the fun of watching gang rape and murder in every ep, which is what this show's fans enjoy.***
You're kidding right? Even the POPE isn't as naïve enough to think this show is overrated! Compare it to the latest so called great shows I still haven't watched a moment of; "Breaking Bad, Sopranos, and The Wire!" I keep hearing how good they are, but from what I understand, the criminal element is almost embraced! I feel that's a lot more obscene than "OZ" where we all know real prison is probably worse than this show!
***I agree w/ you about "BB, The Wire, and Sopranos." They do embrace the criminal element and romanticize crime and find excuses for killers while portraying police as evil. But I just don't get the pleasure of watching a bunch of killers and rapists kill and rape each other. It's nothing but legal, violent, gay porn. Who cares about a bunch of killers in a max security prison? I don't!
---
It's a TV show about criminals in a max security prison ... and you are all shocked that they aren't having pillow fights and talking about their feelings? I'd say watch "Orange Is The New Black" or "Wentworth" since they have less violence, but I think you'd classify them as "lesbian porn."
---
Though "BB and The Wire" also have some serious flaws, they aren't nearly as glaring as the ones in "Oz." ...It's entertaining and I quite like it, but it definitely feels more like an experiment than anything else. I do have to say that I think "Oz" is closer to "BB than The Wire" though.
And before anyone says what about 'Shawshank,' that plan took like 30 years to follow through and he didn't literally dig a tunnel from the inside of a cell/closet to outside the prison like in 'Oz.'
---
"Oz" was HBO's first hour long drama series and paved the way for all the shows you just listed, including "The Sopranos" which premiered 2 years later. As far as I am concerned this show and the actors who starred in it are TV royalty.***
***I never got used to the rapes and murders, and there was no justice for quite a few of the murder victims like Cloutier or Shibetta. This show was an ugly business from beginning to end, but I guess that's the point, it's a prison show. There was absolutely no way for that guy to kill the warden; for one thing how did he get out of the cell block and all the way over to Glynn's office? This show just left a bunch of unanswered questions and unresolved storylines.***
ReplyDeleteAs to the assassination of Glynn, the call came to a guard; hood given access obviously to commit the murder! Same for Mayor who was killed; guards are bought and paid for! I could never work for the city or state where it's almost expected to have employees "on the take" who will allow or do anything for money!
***Before I beg, I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to vilify Dr. Faraj for what he did to Robson (Personally I thought it was awesome). But wouldn't he have lost his license to practice dentistry for what he did to Robson?***
I just smh when it comes to Robson! He had to one of the most pathetic characters in OZ; of his own doing! He looked for punishment in all the wrong places and situations! What would possess someone to threaten and abuse a person that has so much of you in their grasp? Case in point, bullying a dentist who's about to perform "surgery" on your gums! WHY? I sorta understood since he's an Aryan, that he was offended by having an East Indian do the work! OK, but it's like a hood threatening a plastic surgeon to give him a new face only to wake up looking like Hitler! Knowing Robson, he might not see that as a drawback! No one could blame the dentist for being shaken, but that was obscene! He was taking an awful gamble since being "inside" doesn't limit the reach of criminals!
The next time Robson acted like someone w/o a brain is when he's bullying his roommate, Beecher for a BJ! He probably would have done it w/o much fuss if he had asked, but no, Robson has to be abusive and he ended up having the "tip" bitten off! Again, Robson's just laying his head on a guillotine! Taking up w/ Cutler for protection made sense; had no choice, but was smart enough to get back in the good graces of Schillinger and "in the fold!"
***Dr. Faraj didn't do anything bad. Robson's gums were going bad, he went to the dentist, the dentist diagnosed him and gave him options. Robson went w/ getting a dead person's gums. Robson's only request was that anesthesia be used. Nothing else. He never said anything about the race of the person he'd be receiving the gums from. I'm not too sure that'd matter ethically anyway. Unless I'm missing some info, there's actually nothing Faraj did that could get him to lose his job.***
Did you watch and listen to that scene? The GUMS were from a BLACK person; which made it worse than them coming from someone dead in an Aryan's mind! Robson actually cut them out of his own mouth w/ a knife! IDK how he got put back together, but the good doctor ran for his life never to return!
Dr. faraj is not a good doctor but Dr. Nathan is. I don't remember what season and episode was but dr. nathan said when she heard that cyril was dead or sick, she wanted to watch it. ryan said that is good but nathan said revenge is not justice and she is a doctor who should take care of patients(im not sure if that is what ryan and nathan said because i stopped watching that scene).
Deletei was stunned when i heard what nathan said. she's like a god who don't hate but love their enemy. how can person be that nice? but i cant believe that she kissed ryan. maybe she forgot about her previous husband.
from my point of view, i think dr faraj went too far. he ruined someone's gum. it is like a plastic surgeon runied someone's face because he was being mean. what dr faraj did cant be justified even though robson bullied him.
robson could tell warden glynn about that and sue dr faraj. i wonder why robson didnt tell glynn about what dr faraj did to him. maybe robson didnt have enough money to sue faraj? dr faraj could just refuse to see robson when he requested gum surgery.
i felt pity for robson when faraj hit robson's mouth with a phone and lied to prison guards that robson's gum is acting up and sneered. dr faraj must really dislike or hate robson so much.
Robson was bullying the good dentist which was about as stupid as putting his penis in the mouth of Tobias who didn't want to be bothered! He didn't learn then (when tip bitten off) and he didn't learn later when Faraj screwed up his mouth royally! I couldn't imagine cutting off a finger, much less my gums like that! I'll feel more sympathy for the poor losers Robson decides to abuse on a whim! ;-)
Delete***I'm kind of a stats obsessive and I was curious about who was being underused in this ensemble.
ReplyDelete1. Ryan O'Reily - 2236
2. Tim McManus - 1971
3. Tobias Beecher - 1491
4. Warden Leo Glynn - 1480
5. Augustus Hill - 1296
6. Sister Peter Marie Reimondo - 1220
7. Kareem Said - 1205
8. Vern Schillinger - 968
9. Miguel Alvarez - 848
10. Dr. Gloria Nathan - 821
11. Christopher Keller - 819
12. Father Ray Mukada - 772
13. Simon Adebisi - 738
14. Bob Rebadow - 599
15. Arnold "Poet" Jackson - 541
16. Omar White - 540
17. Officer Sean Murphy - 526
18. Kenny Wangler - 508
19. Cyril O'Reily - 491
20. Agamemnon Busmalis - 443
21. Officer Diane Whittlesey - 390
22. James Robson - 384
23. Zahir Arif - 330
24. Chucky "The Enforcer" Pancamo - 323
25. Officer Claire Howell - 287
26. Burr Redding - 280
27. Suzanne Fitzgerald - 278
28. Enrique Morales - 248
29. Carmen "Chico" Guerra - 234
30. Detective Johnny Basil/Desmond Mobay - 207
31. Jaz Hoyt - 200
32. Officer Clayton Hughes - 193
33. Governor James Devlin - 190
34. Shirley Bellinger - 185
35. Jefferson Keane - 178
36. Officer Dave Brass - 168
37. Timmy Kirk - 165
38. Alvah Case - 163
39. Peter Schibetta - 156
40. Nikolai Stanislofsky - 148
41. Jackson Vahue - 144
42. Officer Len Lopresti - 137
42. Raoul "El Cid" Hernandez - 137
44. Reverend Jeremiah Cloutier - 134
45. Antonio Nappa - 133
45. Martin Querns - 133
47. Officer Joseph Mineo - 128
47. Mark Mack - 128
47. Nino Schibetta - 128
50. Kevin "Supreme Allah" Ketchum - 120
51. Leroy Tidd/Salah Udeen - 106
52. Lisa Logan - 105
53. Dino Ortolani - 104
54. Katherine McLean - 102
55. William Giles - 98
Top 10 by Season:
SEASON 1
McManus - 403
Ryan - 330
Hill - 261
Glynn - 247
Beecher - 230
Said - 216
Adebisi - 195
Keane - 163
Diane - 155
Pete - 142
SEASON 2
McManus - 357
Ryan - 299
Hill - 289
Said - 235
Beecher - 228
Glynn - 218
Adebisi - 204
Pete - 194
Wangler - 191
Alvarez - 184
SEASON 3
Ryan - 385
McManus - 290
Pete - 209
Wangler - 194
Glynn - 189
Hill - 181
Keller - 177
Said - 163
Schillinger - 148
Beecher - 145
SEASON 4A
Ryan - 288
Glynn - 249
Beecher - 240
Adebisi - 225
Pete - 211
Said - 210
Hill - 170
Basil - 161
Keller - 160
Schillinger - 124
SEASON 4B
Ryan - 356
McManus - 266
Glynn - 213
Beecher - 197
Hill - 192
Omar - 188
Murphy - 156
Gloria - 144
Schillinger - 143
Said - 142
SEASON 4 (OVERALL)
Ryan - 644
Glynn - 462
Beecher - 437
McManus - 388
Hill - 362
Said - 352
Pete - 345
Schillinger - 267
Keller - 267
Murphy - 239
SEASON 5
Ryan - 338
McManus - 321
Omar - 266
Beecher - 243
Said - 189
Pete - 182
Alvarez - 160
Schillinger - 155
Glynn - 154
Hill - 147
SEASON 6
Ryan - 240
McManus - 212
Glynn - 210
Beecher - 208
Alvarez - 182
Keller - 164
Pete - 148
Mukada - 135
Suzanne - 116
Gloria - 114
TRIVIA:
Only Ryan, McManus, Beecher, and Glynn make the top 10 in every season. Nobody but Ryan has always made the top 5.
Most lines in an episode: Alvah Case in "The Tip" (159), followed by Lisa Logan in "Medium Rare" (105), and Dino Ortolani in "The Routine" (99).
Most lines by a single-episode character: Lisa Logan (105 in "Medium Rare").
Highest lines-per-episode averages (minimum 5 episodes): Ryan (39.9), McManus (36.5), Jefferson Keane (29.6), Glynn (26.9), Beecher (26.6), Omar (24.5), Said (23.2), Hill (23.1), Adebisi (23.1), Sister Pete (22.2), Wangler (22.1).
Fewest lines by Ryan: 14 in "Napoleon's Boney Parts" and "Sonata da Oz".
Only McManus and Ryan ever ranked 1st in a season.
Only Ryan, Beecher, Hill, Schillinger, and Rebadow speak in all 56 episodes. Hill, however, speaks in "Variety" without being seen, only narrating 2 prisoner intros.
Ryan was 1st place in lines in the most episodes (14), followed by McManus (12) and Glynn (9).
I have the stats for every episode and season or any other #-crunching about which you might be curious.***
Who cares about this stuff? I'm into #'s, but don't feel I need to share!
***Worst storyline? - The aging pill stands out the most, not b/c it was by far the worst (though it may be), but b/c it happened in S4, which didn't have the over-the-top tone in every storyline like 5 and 6 did. So it didn't fit as well and was more glaring than, say, demon Timmy Kirk amid a season of other bs. The worst overall are the aging pill, the Chinese stowaways, book binding vs. telemarketing, the conspiracy about the mayor, and some of the Claire Howell stuff. Some of it is annoying for being unrealistic, some for being boring. I even think the Adam Guenzel story was basically a retread and shied away a little too much from the fact that he's a rapist (they tried to make him sympathetic, but that's a problem w/ a rapist when you're not making him as complex as Schillinger). But the one that makes me angriest is Idzik, both as a weak abrupt sendoff for Said, and just a fairly stupid story in general where I'd say Omar ends up getting fairly out of character.
ReplyDelete---
I think S4 pt 2 dumb storylines was the result on going on break and 'Oz' was HBO's next biggest money maker so s4 part 2 was rushed into production w/ those dumb stories. The creator said that in 20 years time that the aging drug pill will be real so he's got 8 more years to prove he's right. - The "outside" does not exist in OZ and it's blurry when you see it. I think that was the intention.***
The last scenes I remember outside are Gunzel hanging off the electric fence trying to escape and of course the prisoners being bussed somewhere since "OZ" had been contaminated by anthrax and closed!
***...But it's a truly great show. However, if you think that interjecting more realism would have made it even greater, then I am afraid this show may not be for you. It was meant to be a much exaggerated version of a prison life in that being unrealistic was exactly what the show makers were going for. Its extreme brutality was the beauty of it, whereas trying to tone it down (even just a few elements) would have made it an average watch and thus it would have never achieved the same level of success/impact as it did.***
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I can't imagine Adebisi didn't rape Kenny Wrangler; stripped, tied down, and gagged! Why wouldn't a pig like Adebisi not take advantage of that piece of meat? I'd have more sympathy for Kenny, but he was such a punk, always saying too much!
***But he was so damn cute being so damn annoying. Lol - I'm having a hard time hating his character on 'Oz' b/c I loved his character on "The Wire" so much.
---
But it's a truly great show. However, if you think that interjecting more realism would have made it even greater, then I am afraid this show may not be for you. It was meant to be a much exaggerated version of a prison life in that being unrealistic was exactly what the snowmakers were going for. Its extreme brutality was the beauty of it, whereas trying to tone it down (even just a few elements) would have made it an average watch and thus it would have never achieved the same level of success/impact as it did.***
***I was satisfied when Beecher shit in Vern's mouth. lol***
ReplyDeleteSchillinger was a true embarrassment; esp. since he couldn't knock off Beecher! I think he was a laughing stock near the end of it's run on HBO! Both had lost family members; and for what? It just made no sense to have all this psychological intrigue when he sent Chris Keller in to seduce Toby! It just made no sense after all was said and done! Vern wound up a dead idiot!
***Beecher has 3 children: Gary, Holly, and Harry. Harry Beecher is the youngest son to Tobias Beecher. If you are confused about where he came from it might be b/c he was not mentioned by anyone during the 1st 5 seasons of the show and never appeared onscreen. From what was said about him onscreen, all we know about the character was that after Beecher's wife Genevieve died, there was a weird custody arrangement btw Beecher's parents and in-laws where Harry went to live w/ Genevieve's parents in San Diego, while Holly and Gary lived w/ Tobias's parents. He's 1st mentioned when Beecher is residing in Unit J by Harrison Beecher (Harry's grandfather & Tobias' father). Harrison was supposed to bring Harry to visit Tobias in Oz, but Harry ended up being too scared to go. Then, after his parole, Beecher spends his spare time with Harry.
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Beecher and his wife had conjugal visits as well. Remember when she saw his brand from schillinger? So it's possible she even got pregnant while he was in prison.***
Now that's news to me! I never heard of Glynn ever allowing conjugal visits; marriage yes, actual physical contact no! Oh well, I must have missed that! Trailer out back? Was this before or after Beecher fell for Keller?
***The conjugal visit w/ his wife happened in S1 before the governor eliminated them. - Why is Hamid Khan in OZ for assault when he beat up a man who was raping a woman? Wouldn't it be considered justifiable?***
You're kidding right? When it comes to being a big, BLACK man in this freakin' country, "no good deed goes unpunished!"
***I cannot remember Dinklage in the show. Funniest part I remember is Adebisi turning out Pancamo's lights and doing the same to a goon before having sex w/ Peter Schibetta up the Gary.***
He wasn't really "in" OZ; more a victim in a flashback! IIRC, he was assaulted, thrown off a building, and murdered by Chico Guerra! People thought it funny when a "little person" is roughed up by some big goon I guess! What a country!
***Ah, 1 of those flashbacks which Augustus Hill narrates to describe the reason for the character being in OZ. They should have had a flashback for every character. HBO missed a trick there, they would have got another season out of the show that way, plus seeing in the background any character throughout the show would have us realise better how dangerous it was in there. I hated wondering what the extras in the background had done. Maybe the 'little guy' aspect was to show Chico had no qualms about bullying and killing helpless people. I don't think anybody being thrown off a roof would be funny.***
It's been 10 years since I've watch "OZ," but IIRC those flashbacks continue to the end; even if "con" has been around for a while! You see them initially when someone 1st enters OZ, but later on when a situation or event occurs w/ one of our old faves, a flashback can be created and aired! Beecher had more than 1; "the accident, his trial, and sentence" flashback where the judge came to see him feeling guilty for "putting the hammer" to him!
***In OZ, how can a guy be considered "straight" if he's raped a lot of men? - I feel like whatever their sexual orientation is on the outside, it gets slowly warped from being in prison too long.
ReplyDelete---
1) People don't just change their sexual orientation due to circumstance; it's hard-wired, not a choice. The only people who enjoy having sex w/ either gender and can choose who to be romantically involved w/ are bisexuals.
2) Raping someone isn't "having sex" - the turn-on for the rapist lies in the domination/degradation/humiliation of their victim. Nothing to do w/ physical attraction. In an all male environment, they don't exactly have a selection to act out their perversion.
Plenty of guys spend years in prison w/o any same sex sexual relationship, for different reasons. Plenty of straight male prisoners will only engage in same sex relations w/ another guy "one-sided" - the other is the one who gives BJs, HJs and fk'n - that could be a gay or bi guy who in return gets protection. Just trust that going for yrs w/o a warm, wet spot to put your dick can do a #.
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Yeah, I was thinking of Robson. It doesn't come across as him just trying to humiliate or dominate anyone; he often seems genuinely interested. Of course it's Robson, so he does that in the creepiest way possible.
I'd say that both Keller and Scott Ross were bisexual. Keller seems comfortable w/ his sexuality inside prison, but from what we've heard of his life outside of the joint (killing the men he picked up) he went to horrible lengths to hide it. I'm guessing it's something he's personally okay w/ but that he hates the concept of society judging him for it; or maybe he just likes killing them.
Adebisi might be bisexual as well. That or he's just opportunistic or a sadist like Vern. As far as we know it's only ever been rape though he does seem to flirt quite a bit.
It's difficult to tell as so many of the Aryan's force themselves on other inmates; who's a complete sadist and who's acting out repressed tendencies in a way that they can deny to themselves.***
Well said. This is why "OZ" is still topical and can play NOW as if "1st run" material.
***Is OZ pro-islamic? - I think the Muslims were the most flawed of all the cliques in Oz. They were constantly squabbling amongst themselves, stabbing each other in the back, and Said was a shameless publicity whore.***
The way I saw it, it was a late conversion. They were losers to begin w/ or they wouldn't have been in jail. What do you expect from criminals? How many find religion in prison? What were they before that that put them in the clink?
***Unintentionally funny moments - I liked when someone, I think Burr redding asked Adebisi how he managed to keep that hat on his head. lol... I think every viewer has been wondering about that every episode.***
ReplyDeleteThe 1 instance I specifically remember asking that question was Querns in his office; actually snatching the cap off the side of his head and checking it out. ;-)
***Characters w/ the Most Lines in 'Oz' - Surprsied that O'Reilly had more lines than Beecher.
1. Ryan O'Reily - 2236
2. Tim McManus - 1971
3. Tobias Beecher - 1491
-
11. Christopher Keller - 819
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Top 10 by Season:
SN 1
McManus - 403
Ryan - 330
Hill - 261
SN 2
McManus - 357
Ryan - 299
Hill - 289
SN 3
Ryan - 385
McManus - 290
Pete - 209
SN 4A
Ryan - 288
Glynn - 249
Beecher - 240
SN 4B
Ryan - 356
McManus - 266
Glynn - 213
Beecher - 197
SN 4 (OVERALL)
Ryan - 644
Glynn - 462
Beecher - 437
McManus - 388
SN 5
Ryan - 338
McManus - 321
Omar - 266
Beecher - 243
SN 6
Ryan - 240
McManus - 212
Glynn - 210
Beecher - 208
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That's funny, b/c he had soooo many more lines than Beecher, and beats him in every single season, including besting him by a whopping 240 lines in 2 season. - I'm surprised Keller is so high considering he wasn't in 2 seasons.***
Chris crosses all lines in "OZ;" socializing w/ the Brotherhood, working w/ Sister Pete, his relationship w/ Beecher, and an FBI agent has a "hard on" for him; trying to pin some murders on him. Even w/ Keller's 2 year absence, I can tell you he and Beecher would have a lot of lines since they interact on several levels in "OZ."
***Love or Insanity? - Was the show trying to make some statement about love being nothing more than insanity? I feel like every X a character fell in love in the show, it w/b nearly impossible to empathize. (O'Riley/Gloria, Beecher/Keller); felt more like a disease that had infected the character than something relate-able. Was this just bad writing/acting in the early seasons? Was this intentional? It felt very out-of-place in an otherwise very well written/acted show.***
***Beecher was Dorothy? Recently revisited this show this summer and it's still holds up well. The connection between the 'Wizard of Oz' and this show is apparent:
ReplyDelete-The capital city in the 'Wizard of Oz' is called Emerald City.
-The prison cell block in Oswald State Correctional Facility is called Em City.
-McManus named the cell block Em City.
-McManus thinks that he's the 'Wizard of Oz.'
Beecher is the main character, particularly in S1 and in some ways he shares character traits w/ Dorothy from the 'Wizard of Oz.'***
Interesting!
***I've been trying to find the last 2 eps, but can't find them. I heard Glynn gets murdered? Keller jumps off a roof? Cyril gets executed?
McManus gets fired? What happened?***
It's been 10 years since I've seen it, but Keller backed over a railing to his death trying to frame Beecher when he asked to be "let go!" Getting him incarcerated was the last straw I guess! No one felt sorry for Glenn getting knocked off! He continued to send prisoners to "Solitary Confinement" even though the doctor had informed him they would all become ill and die of "lead poisoning" IIRC! Before Keller jumped, he thought he was doing a good thing by having a parcel of anthrax sent to the prison to knock off the Brotherhood (in the PO) and save Beecher once and for all! The prison was closed and the prisoners taken to another facility as it ended; Beecher one of the original few on the bus seeing OZ disappear in the distance!
***If you'd have to guess, where are the "OZ" charcters now?
Beecher is probably released and w/ his kids
Father M...; Sister Peter Marie are probably retired
Tim McManus is probably still working at OZ
Gloria Dr. Nathan has probably left the prison, but still talks to Ryan
Alvarez has probably been paroled, but sent back to oz
Robson is probably dead
Burr redding is prob dead too
The mayor was sent to prison and eventually killed
Poet, Ryan O'Riley, Musmanus, and the others had life sentences, so they probably are still in Oz
Whatdo y'all think?***
Interesting!
***Watched OZ when it 1st came out, have liked it more and more w/ each watch. It's honestly one of those shows I can re-watch every year and still like it just as much as previous X's; even more at X's. Wonderful writing, great characters, fantastic acting and as I said above, great replay value!***
ReplyDeleteIt's timeless! By unanimous vote, this Grandfather of cable drama can play 1st run somewhere and most would eat it up! It was ahead of its time and is still topical w/ today's issues including terrorism! It went "off the rails" a little w/ some of the plot-holes, miracles, ghosts, murders, and experimentation on prisoners, but I can watch this show anytime now and into the future!
***This show has excellent replay value. I've watched this show twice over the course of the last 2 years. I guess when the series started, Beecher was the audience's proxy into the world of Oz. It was interesting watching his character evolve over the course of the series. I guess time in Oz made his character more hardened and more badass. Other characters I liked were Ryan O'Reilly, Kareem Said, Adebisi, & Schillinger. Ryan was such a manipulative shit, but there's something about him that made me like him. Maybe it was b/c of the loyalty he showed his brother Cyril, even though he used him half the time. But I guess deep down he loved his brother.***
Well you can say Ryan loved his brother; up to a point! If he could profit or deflect trouble coming his way; anyone and everyone's up for grabs! Sorry to say, but Ryan was the lowest of the low! Manipulation is expected, but he worked everyone like a brat on the playground! It was family week in OZ w/ his brother, father, and mother; business as usual! Only a sick individual would think killing the husband of a doctor in OZ would come of anything but trouble! Cyril was caught right away so he not only didn't get Gloria's heart, his brother's locked up and an easy mark for Schillinger and the Brotherhood!
***...you watched the show to see the inmates in the shower. I know I enjoyed it esp. when they showed EVERYTHING.***
I can only remember Hoyt actually showing anything worth seeing! He was being thrown into "the hole" totally naked; flashing a significant chubby!
***Man... Fiero. I haven't seen that scene in years, but I STILL remember it. I was very impressed by Hoyt.***
I'm sure I haven't seen it in over 10 years, but remember that scene quite distinctly! Very impressive!
***Hoyt was vile, big fatty. Now Keller, that was worth seeing!***
You must have missed the scene; looks tubby in clothes, but stripped down to be dumped in the hole, he had definition. Maybe he cut out breakfast that morning.
***Who's death brought you the most satisfaction and who's the least:
Most satisfying death: Kenny, such a cute guy, but damn I hated him
Most upsetting: Beecher's dad! Richard Gilmore got butchered! Not only was he a humanitarian lawyer he wasn't an inmate. It really upset me when he died.
Most shocking: Adebisi! I really couldn't believe that such a strong and 3 dimensional character was taken out. Btw him and Said, I'd rather Adebisi bit it, but I was still shocked that that's what it came to
Who deserved to die? Claire haha. Nasty bitch.***
I can't disagree w/ any of your comments; esp. about Claire and Richard. Why was he wandering around there alone anyway? Oz's a prison, not a day care center.
***Was there any point to Ketchum character? I've watched the series at least a 12 X's and I still don't understand why they introduced him. It's not like Hill needed a bigger adversary than anyone else in Em City.
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There was about 20 characters that had no point; Edward Gallson, Alexander Vogel, Mark Mack, Mark Miles, Lou Wrath, Fred Wick, Junior Pierce, etc. That's just the way the show was.***
How tough do you have to be to "beat down" someone in a wheelchair? He wasn't missed after that! A strong character w/ a rep, but that 1 incident in the shower made no sense; even though Augustus was being disrespectful! I guess it was better he got his butt beat in private than in front of everyone if Supreme Allah felt so disrespected by Augustus' mouth!
***Worst storyline? - Cyril O'Reilly and the sock puppet. IDK WTF that was all about.***
Cyril was just trying to cope! After his brain damage, he could barely defend himself from the likes of Schillinger, Ryan, and others! It didn't help that his own brother manipulated him mercilessly; the boxing match and beating the TV host/reporter who stayed overnight in OZ!
***All of "OZ" sucked balls:
- Said's death, and the reason for it: WTF?!!! Did Eamon Walker PO Fontana or something to get such absurd ending?
- Torquemada: seemed right out of Nip/Tuck (Ryan Murphy) or Glee. No freaking sense.
- Assassination cover-up, all the way to Glynn: just too much and achieved too little.
- Schillinger: since S5 (Phone conversation w/ Aryan leader about Robson's ghetto gums) he was saddled w/ pathetic story-lines and written as a weakling & pathetic douchebag, never mind his death which was very poorly handled. WTF?! Did Simmons also PO Fontana somehow?
- The biological agent Keller (somehow) acquired and had sent to the mailroom to kill the entire Aryan Brotherhood.
Need to say more? In the prior seasons, even the whacked out plots (Chinese refugees, Powerball lottery, Rev. Cloutier) somehow served to advance the characters involved in them in believable and consistent directions. They were greatly handled; great enough to suspend disbelief long enough.
In season 6, it's pretty obvious Fontana (or whomever took over writing) couldn't even pretend to give 2 craps anymore and went through the motions marking X until payday.
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Creepiest/most disturbing crime flashbacks - My fave was of Chico chucking Peter Dinklage off a rooftop after dangling and taunting him a little while (S4). I always found it amusing they had a dwarf victim suffer this truly awful demise. I mean, you gotta be 1 cruel mofo to do that to a height challenged person, right?***
Funny, I mentioned Dinklage in that 1 scene of "OZ" and someone swore it wasn't him! He's been in a ton of projects, but I've only seen him in "Nip/Tuck" and "X-Men: Days of Future Past!" No "Game Of Thrones" fan here; sorry! Been a while, but I think the Latin guy was Chico Guerra!
***Yes, Guerra was the Dinklage chucker.***
***...I found the following:
ReplyDeleteTitle: "Oz" (1997) {Plan B (#1.7)}
In the episode "Plan B" more close ups of Beecher defecating on Schillnger's face were cut.
Title: "Oz" (1997) {A Game of Checkers (#1.8)}
Eugene Dobbins being stabbed many more X's including the neck & head.
Title: "Oz" (1997) {Impotence (#5.8)}
More sadistic torture & hazing rituals involving the Aryans, specif. involving Winthrop & Schillinger. Scenes cut included Schillinger graphically sodomizing Franklin w/ close ups of penis thrusting & full frontal nudity. Another rather disturbing scene involving more psychological torture of Winthrop w/ Schillinger handing Winthrop a roll of toilet paper after Schillnger defecated in the toilet. Schillinger then stands up, bends over, looks at Winthrop and states w/ a smile "Come on prag, wipe it clean."
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If I were an actor, you couldn't pay me any amount of $$ to do that type of scene. I wouldn't be that desperate to further my acting career, & you'd think J.K. Simmons was estab. enough of an actor by then to have clauses in his contracts against doing any such type of scene. It's gotta be rather frightening to set up a scene like that.***
I can do w/o a lot of that, but would have expected more & that some scenes were cut from the original!
***What do you think of how Warden Glynn does his job? - He's probably the worst Warden ever when it comes right down to it.***
He was a grunt that made it up the ranks! That doesn't work IMO; a need for a real professional! He was ok for a while, then went insane allowing prisoners to breath in all those poisons in solitary! Why the doctor didn't blow the whistle is still making me SMH!
***Did Keller really LOVE Beecher? What was all that? - Well Beecher DID tell sister Peter Marie in the gym that Keller really did love him (last ep). That it was real. Probably more of an obsessive love though; like Ryan's love for Gloria, a selfish love.***
"Being selfish" is what it's all about when it comes to love IMO! It's all about making oneself happy even if totally giving to someone! Keller was definitely wired incorrectly; his kind of love was so selfish, he set Beecher up t/b re-arrested & imprisoned w/ him!
***I also forgot to mention "manipulative." Keller was good at that.***
That's what I can't stand; the manipulation! A lot of the X it was just malicious like "flirting w/ Sister Pete!" Got her all worked up & she almost left! I'm naïve & want to take everyone @ face value! IDK how Keller kept up his act since he was part of the Brotherhood, was honest w/ Sister Pete in therapy, loved Beecher to some extent, & kept cons going w/ other hoods like O'Reily!
***Beecher challenged everything Keller always knew t/b true. He played Beecher @ 1st to get him to fall in love & Keller thought, like all that came before, Beecher would love him unconditionally. Yet the 1st chance he had, Beecher manipulated him & then literally stabbed him in the back which made Beecher more attractive to Keller. While I think he interpreted as love what he really felt for Beecher was respect. Honestly to a narcissistic sociopath respect is love.***
I remember one occasion Beecher felt compelled to stab Keller! Someone told him that Chris had ordered the death of his son when Schillinger was the 1 who kidnapped the kids! Keller found out & took care of the guy who lied proving his love I guess! Beecher turned into a true con working the internal system as well as any "lifer!" When the FBI was sniffin' around trying to get evidence on Keller, Beecher let him know his good buddy, Ronnie Barlog was about to rat him out even though they weren't together at the X! Chris snapped his neck so that's on Tobias who had to know what would happen!
***Ran across this Tom Fontana interview the other day in which he said:
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"Is there anything that you couldn’t do on the show that you wish you had?
For the last episode, my original idea was to do something I’d read about. There was a flood in a prison town. The river was overflowing so they removed the prisoners. The prisoners worked side by side with the townspeople to put up the sandbags and protect the town.
I thought that would be the ideal way to end this series. Just this image of all the guys next to someone who would normally be terrified of them. Handing each other sandbags, people getting hurt, whatever. And it was just too expensive. We couldn’t figure out the logistics. We’d have to get a river, we’d have to have it overflow.
So the ending that we have I’m happy with. But I would have been happier. Symbolically, what I was trying to say was these are people, too. They have faces, too. And in moments they have a shared humanity with all of us. That, to me, would have been the perfect ending."
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- http://the-toast.net/2015/08/11/the-legacy-of-oz-chat-with-tom-fontana/ -
As much as I enjoyed the Macbeth performance and the Aryan's opening the package from Keller, I'd have like to have seen this. What are your thoughts?
Also, do you think the original ending would've been most of the finale, or just the final five or so minutes? The way I picture it resembles the ending of – very mild spoilers for Robert Altman's only western – McCabe and Mrs. Miller, where the entire town comes together to put out the fire.
It'd certainly have been much more moving sign off without diminishing the bittersweet tone of the series overall.***
Thanks!
***Beecher's hair on the 5th season was insulting it was so bad. Looked like a billy goat. Why did they do that? It was out of style by the 21st Century.***
I just thought "at least he didn't have that stupid beard;" looked like a lumberjack!
***If you volunteer t/b pragged, you weren't raped. Wolfgang made it very clear to Robson that if he wanted protection, he had to become his prag. Robson took X to think about it, said yes "you can funk me" & then cries rape b/c Wolfgang wasn't gentle about it. "You volunteered t/b a prag Robson, like a bitch, & Beecher bit off the tip of your dong."***
ReplyDeleteGetting protection & being coerced into sexual payments' still rape IMO! If it was a real relationship like Beecher & Keller's, that w/b diff.! Robson was being assaulted on a regular basis, but took it just to stay alive! Not like I have any sympathy for him since he was such a prick! I still remember his pecker getting "bit off" when he tried to force Beecher to "do him!"
***I disagree. Cutler wasn't going to touch Robson. It wasn't until Robson literally said, "yes you can commit unspeakable sexual acts on me as long as you protect me" that Cutler committed said acts. While certainly unpleasant & horrific, Robson made it very clear he was willing. It's not like when Schillinger raped Beecher, b/c Beecher never said "yes as long as you protect me" and certainly not like Beecher & Keller. But Robson VOLUNTEERED t/b a prag. And He wasn't coerced into accepting Cutler's offer, Cutler said "this is the cost." Robson thought about it & came back to him & said yes, he AGREED to sexual payment b/c he's a puss. A victim of horrendous sex acts, yes; but a victim of rape, no.***
I found it inconceivable Robson could come up w/ a plan & execute it to get out of his abuse, then get back into the good graces of the Brothehood! If he was that smart, he wouldn't have been in prison! I'm still wondering why Cutler left all his possessions to Alvarez; of all people?
***Seriously, just gets right back in, no trouble; esp. when you consider Cutler was friendly w/ the Aryans & they didn't even mention he wasn't allowed in cause Omar White choked him to death & brought him back. As for giving his stuff to Alvarez, I still don't get it; other than m/b j/b Alveraz was stage manager & a Latino who might screw over his wife as Aryan or friend probably would've just signed the stuff over.
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Who's death brought you the most satisfaction & who's the least?***
So many "came & went," but right at the top of the list is Timmy Kirk! Love redheads, but he's such a sick ass bastard! From throwing away his kid in a dumpster to being upset when Cloutier wouldn't submit to his sexual advances, he caused a lot of heartache; inside & out of OZ! He survived many attempts, but was finally knocked off near the end of the series by "Hoyt" who had a vision earlier to kill him!
After Glynn's allowing prisoners to inhale lead while in solitary, he should have lived long enough to be "put away" in "OZ!" Too bad it didn't happen! Put him in solitary since he wouldn't even allow the good doctor to rat him out!
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